Terrible Threes? - Fairfax,CA

Is there anyway she can learn "no thank you" it is much easier to be heard by mommy and she is at the age where she is learning how much control she does/doesn't have over her little world. Once we changed NO to No Thank You it was a bit easier to hear and continue the conversation of why he was going to do what I asked him to do.

How I dealt with "no" was in one of 3 ways:

1) Ignore it. Sorry kiddo... you don't get a vote. CERTAIN things are mandatory and not worth me even entertaining the notion. Like holding hands while crossing the street. Hands have to be held. Leaving has to happen. Bedtime needs to happen BEFORE mommy has a lobotomy. Etc.

2) Treat it like a joke / laugh at it. Okay silly boy... go on outside in the snow in your bare feet. I'll bring your boots and socks though, because I think you're going to learn a thing or two quite quick.

3) Take him seriously. If he doesn't break a golden rule (we had a couple... see below), and is just asserting himself in an acceptable way about something that is not life threatening. Sure. I'll talk about it. I'll listen. I may or may not agree. But I will listen. And if the case is presented in a logical way, I'll even concede. (EX: putting shoes on before getting in the car... he'd rather put them on in the car after we get to the ________ so he can sit crosslegged and not have hot feet... okay... I can see that. But you have to carry your shoes TO the car or no deal. Your choice.).

We soooo had the terrible 3's at our house. (2 was love bug, and 4 was SUPER love bug... hold on mama... you can get there!) but 3 was an unholy nightmare.

Here are my two super fav things from that period of time:

- If you whine, you don't get what you want
- If you throw a fit, you don't get what you want AND you're on timeout

(and no minute per year thing... major emotions in our house... timeout lasted until kiddo was calm and could talk about what happened, why he threw a fit, and some better options for next time. In his own defense he didn't often repeat behavior... but boy oh boy did he come up with new and interesting boundaries to push and behaviors that are *not* allowed at any given period of time.

And my 3 lifesavers:

- "The harder they push away, as long as you let them*, the faster they come running back. It's like they want to prove how big they are, get scared that maybe now they're so big they don't "need" you anymore, and you'll go away... and they glom on like burrs on socks. Testing, testing... will she REALLY still love me? How about if I do this? Do THIS? What about that? Will she still love me? " -advice from my mum at the dawn of this new era

(There's a great picture book on this. btw: http://www.amazon.com/Mama-Do-You-Love-Me/dp/0811821315 )

* letting them push away means 2 things: 1) Not yelling "Fine, do whatever you want!" and stomping off leaving them alone or in any other way making your love conditional. AKA you'll only be there if she's making you happy. and 2) picking battles. This doesn't mean being wishy washy, or being inconsistant. It just means giving them space in certain ways that lets them be independant. The godawful outfit they picked out themselves... the "Do it myself!" being an okay thing in certain cases (or modified... Sure! As long as ________. If not, then I have to do it), etc.

- Mommy time outs / Counting to 5. We made a deal I would *always* count to 5 if I was serious, and would NOT get angry before getting to 5. If I did get angry, or start to feel overwhelmed, or start to contemplate the force and velocity necessary to put my head through the drywal... Mommy went on timeout. Which meant *kiddo* had 2 options. His room, or a movie. AKA if he was responsible in a negative way (as in that moment when spanking -or whatever you decided not to resort to- sounds absolutely brilliant... he goes to his room until I'm not angry and can deal with him, or if he's just SUPER happy/ being loud/ being a kid/ not his fault I'm all stressed out... he gets a movie, and mommy gets to sit on the porch and remove all homicidal impulses. :) :) :)

- Alone time. It's amazing how actually missing the little troublemaker smoothes out the rough edges of "I'm going crazy!". Even just a few hours once a week.

PS: Babies can learn to nap with bombs dropping. Your 10 month old will have a few wonky weeks, but will soon enough not even register the sound of big sis's screaming tantrums in dreamtime. i

Our son is almost 3 and we have an 8 mo old daughter as well. He has been testing his limits for the last few months too - and I know what you mean..I feel so neglectful when he 'needs' me and I'm trying to make dinner or feed the baby or whatever. Of course I am bracing myself for the tantrum or tears or guilt the entire time. He's in a stage where he seems to think he 'can't' play by himself and oh the guilt of saying 'mommy can't play right now!"

What we have found that really works is counting to 3. Like you we use lots of postive re-inforcement, but when he's pushed the envelope-being sassy or just not listening we tell him we will count to 3 and then he is going to his bed. He totally gets it now and that's when he knows we mean business.

I'm also just getting better at walking away from the tantrums. If he wants to play and I have to make dinner I suggest he bring the toys in from the playroom into the kitchen and play there so he's closer-if that doesn't work then I just walk away from the fussing.

Re-directing still works a little. Like-come help mommy make dinner, type of thing or wash the dishes...

Hope that helps-it's so hard sometiems-you want to eat them up cuz they are so awesome and pull your hair out at the same time!

Hello Stacie, As the mother of 5 and now the Grandmother of several,(2 are3-4 y/o) I thought I'd give a little input from my experiances.
I have seldom had a 3yo take a regular nap, in fact the only way my grandchild will do it is the cat becasue she has to be still to have him stay on the bed. 3 y/o's are at a age when they are no longer toddlers and babies, yet not little children-- they are in the in between stages. Since she has heard the word no and used with power then she repeats it back with power. By the way my 24 y/o son says a 4 yo is a 2yo with a mouth!
My suggestion is : Be firm when you need to be with out backing down and don't let her become the boss. You are the mother not the friend and you are the one to set the boundries so she will have a foundation to grow from. She is a princess, and is also in the age of changes that she doesn't understand either. So give her the security and the boundries she needs and make the adjustments that you need to so it will work. I use 3 methods which even work for children with ADD. 1. I only count to 3- never any higher, sometimes its as a warning and sometimes its as a method of showing them I am aware of the bad behavior. If I have to repeat the counting then I use a firm voice and before we get to 3 I say 21/2 then 3 then they have to pay the natural consequence of the actions. 2. I whisper into thier ear, then they have to really listen to hear what I am saying. Sometimes its how specail theyare, sometimes it's what I am seeing that bothers me, or that I am the one in charge not them, but always its gentle and soft and in a way that even the most wired child will settle down-- it sometimes takes time to get this one to work but I promise it does. 3. We have what we call MOM'S TIME OUT TIME, that's when the children had to play quietly, look at books or watch a show and then I got things done even took a nap a time or 2. We set the clock or my kids and now the grandchildren call it the Perry Mason Hour becasue when that show comes on ans until its over its Moms Time Out.. believe me they will tell you when its over. Any show will do but this one has a mystry and is black and white which still facinates children, my daughter inlaw uses Veggie Tales, which is wonderful and if you have netflick they have many on it. Since she is having the 1 hour time then it's not working try using that hour in a different way so she isn't bored like she sounds.
I learned as the mother of 5 that also worked out of the home part time-- that parenthood is much like a theme park ride, lots of twists and turns and a scream around every cornor and when it eds you want to jump right back on for the next adventure. Good Luck mom never loose sight of your goal as a parent and know your children are your greatest achivement even when they have just spilled the liquid jello on the floor.

When my middle child was three I thought I was going to lose my mind. One tip from "Parenting with Love and Logic" turned the trick for us.

When you're trying to get her to do something, give her two choices, both of which end with what you want done. For example, you might say, "You can either stay in time out without losing a toy, or you can stay in time out and lose (insert toy name here). We'll give (toy name) to (insert destination here)." She'll choose the give-the-toy-away option a couple of times, but if you choose which toy wisely, and FOLLOW THROUGH, she'll soon get the message.

You can also select a different consequence rather than giving a toy away, just make it something that will matter to her. In the book, he recommended making the consequence a swat on the behind, and I confess that's what I ended up doing. I only needed to give her a swat one time, and after that, when I gave her the two-choice option, she always picked the no-consequence route. Peace and order was restored in my home. Yay!

Good luck!

Three is so much harder than two!

Try telling her what to do instead of what to stop doing, and give her small things that she can easliy do and then praise her. It is easier for her, and will releive some of the negativity. Other than that, keep doing what you are doing, this too, shall pass.

M.

Hi there Stacey,

I see you've gotten tons of responses, but I've been thinking about your note since yesterday. Just wanted you to know that I'm there with you. I've had quite enough of the "turbulent threes"- since about 2 1/2! We also have a new baby, so that's not helping my patience level at all. I too really don't like how stern I have to be with my 3yo son.

What has helped is the "love and logic" series. It provide a few more tools for my parenting tool box. Choices, consequences, etc. I don't whole-heartedly agree with all of it, but it does give me some direction when I'm feeling lost.

Also, a good friend told me: attend to your 1st child first- they are cognizant and remember. Your baby will forgive and forget the few minutes you were delayed taking care of #1.

I can't wait for my son's 4th Bday, though! I can already see glimmers of it when we don't have a major battle putting clothes on in the morning! For many days in the last month, I've been to work almost 1/2 hour earlier b/c he didn't throw a fit!! Hoorah.

My best to you- and remember, it's all just a phase!
Erika

Although my children are older than yours, I do remember those days of the "no" all the time. One of the things that I used to do was to give two options for something. For example, "Cathy would you rather go to bed and take a nap (1) or sit quietly looking at books and listening to your CD (2)? Then they feel that they have made a decision. I would always give 2 options that I was ok with. If I want Cathy to have quiet time I wouldn't give her the option of taking a nap (1) or banging a spoon on her favorite pot (2). Try to find two options that you can live with no matter which she chooses. I would then praise her for her decision and tell her that she made a good choice so she wants to do it again next time.
Good luck and hang in there.

Your 3 yr old is the alpha child and requires a certain amount of attention from you to fill her cup for the day. Keep in mind that the baby is still just a baby but your oldest is in a formative stage that requires you to be on board.
If she is bugging you while you are in the kitchen why dont you anticipate that and set up something she can do while you are busy or just have her help with something. Even giving her a cup and a spoon with some water to play with at the sink will make her feel special and like she's helping rather than being scolded and shoo'd away all the time. Change the routine in a way that requires you to not have to say NO to her and give her things to do that she wont want to say NO to.

I have a dear wise friend who says just when you think you can't stand it anymore it changes to something else. Hang in there and be patient. It will pass!

I completely agree with you and the terrible threes. Four is much better, believe me! I think you're doing a great job of consistent discipline, and your idea for positive interaction is a good one. Your daughter could very well be reacting to the 10 month old, jealous for your attention and upset that the baby is now getting into her stuff! You should try to give her lots of positive attention, to "fill her tank" so she is okay with the baby getting attention when needed, or you focusing on dinner or work. Another way to give her attention is have her "help" you while you do those tasks that just need to get done, hopefully keeping her busy will prevent her from acting out. If you need to use discipline, my son used the red-yellow-green system in preschool that we modified with a poster at home. Green light days meant he got a small reward (sticker, candy), yellow light meant he/his toy was in time out, and red light meant he was grounded to his room for some downtime. It worked very well for his behavior, especially as he got closer to age 4. This too shall pass!

We always found that the half years - 2.5, 3.5, 4.5, etc - were much harder... And yes, 3 was much harder/worse than 2.
Children need to learn that they are not the center of the universe. They need consistency, consequences, and discipline. She is testing. She wants what she wants when she wants it. Be firm. Do NOT give in because if you do, you will create a monster.
You need rules and consequences. Set the rules - remind her once - then if she doesn't do what she is supposed to do, she gets the consequence which could be time out, or no treat or whatever. Just be consistent.
LBC

Terrible threes indeed. I don't have any real advice, just that the "no" thing drives me batty. I don't want him saying that to me, and I especially don't want him to say it to his teachers! The only thing that has really worked for him is TIME! I know that doesn't help you at all, but it is such a phase they're going through. They're learning how to assert themselves, how to push your buttons very effectively, and how to push the limits as far as they can go. We had two hard and fast rules that helped get us through the toughest times a bit:
1) If he started throwing a fit (because that's what my son would do when he didn't get his way - scream and cry and wake up the baby - ugh!) then he had to go to his room and throw it. I would lead him by the hand to his bed and tell him he could come back out when he was all done screaming and ready to be happy.
2) If he said "no" to me or his dad, it was an automatic time out.

I agree with the previous poster that said the halfs were the worst time. He went through a really bad phase of the fits and the "no's" right at this time. Then it just disappeared! This week, the behavior has started up again, and my theory is that it's because he's sick.

Anyway, the best advice is to breathe deeply and wait this one out! Stick to your guns about her not saying "no" to you guys and being respectful. It's important. Even if it seems like you're not getting through, you are.

Our job as parents is to give our children limits to test. Having limits is reassuring and comforting to a kid, but they still need to test them. It is exhausting to have to be the limit setter all the time, but it's part of the job. One of the things that makes it easier is to decide your limits and your non-negotiable issues in advance. Certainly issues of safety fall in that category, but there may be others based on your particular family values and issues. It might be dress codes or manners or mealtimes or shopping or whatever, but if you've thought about it in advance you're not just reacting.
Don't take on a battle that you're not prepared to win.
Parenting is a tough job (just wait til the teen years!) rewarding and exhausting.
Good luck to you! You can do it!

We all, I think, dream of being the mommy of a sweet, compliant, loving child. Unfortunately it just doesn't work that way. These little humans are having to learn how to become mature adults and it's our job to work with them. That means we don't get to be 'buddies' 'best friends' or whatever other sweet title you want to give that get along all the time, good feeling relationship. Yes, there are going to be those cuddly, good feeling times. But much of your time is going to be dealing with melt-downs, rebellion, "no", and the like.
One thing I've found that works sometimes (nothing is ever fool-proof with these little ones!) is to take the time to sit with them. When a child is upset, the last thing they want to do is simply sit beside and adult. But, if you sit down and put an arm around her, all the time saying something like, "when you're calmed down and ready, we'll talk about this. After that you'll be able to get back up". It will likely take at least ten minutes each time for the first few times. Eventually she will get the idea that she would rather comply with you than to sit with you for discipline. I understand that this is not an easy way to deal with her when you have another little one to think about at the same time, so this may be something you'd only want to use when Daddy is home and one of you can tend to the baby while the other one tends to her discipline.
It sounds like the naptime is a big issue because of her noise. Can you make sure she is asleep before dealing with the baby? Again, I know that might not be easy to do. But, think about when you are putting each child down and perhaps you'll find you need to adjust that a little so that you can put the older girl down before the baby starts getting fussy. Sit with her and be sure she's lying quietly for at least five minutes. Have the light in her room dimmed, and some quiet music playing. Usually, a child who is encouraged to lie quietly will soon drift off to sleep even if they don't think they are tired. As long as she's getting plenty of active play time in the morning, she should still be able to take at least an hour nap in the afternoon... and likely needs it.