Visitation - Renton, WA

Hi,

If there really is no obligation to make them visit her, then I would tell her they just are not comfortable being away from their dad for such a long time. I absolutely would not send children alone, somewhere they don't feel safe. So, I think the options are for you to go with them, their dad to go with them and stay in a hotel, or for mom and her new husband to visit them and get to know the children better (and postpone sending them alone until they feel better about it).

DO NOT FORCE IT!!! Sending them to their mothers, especially out of state, sounds like it wouldn't be to much of a good situation for the children. If you were to take them down where she lives and have a hotel they could come back to when they felt like that that's another story. Their mother needs to learn to not guilt the children. It's not good for them.

I would strongly, strongly, strongly advise that he consult with a family law attorney. I have to say that your statements about the custody arrangements raised some huge red flags for me - if I were asked to provide my legal opinion on this, I would darn sure want to read the court documents because I have the sense that what the arrangement between the two parents turned out to be is NOT what the papers actually said. But the way you described the custody arrangement is almost certainly going to get you lots of advice from Mamasource Mamas to simply blow off visitation - because I don't think you gave them an accurate picture.

When you say "she signed over custody," I'm guessing that her parental rights have not been terminated - so she DOES have a right to visitation UNLESS the custody papers (the ones signed by the judge NOT some agreement between the two parents) specifically say that there is not court-ordered visitation. (And this is very unusual. Generally, crappy court-orders will say that this is to be left to the discretion of the parties - a BAD idea. THIS is what I'm guessing is what's going on here.)

This is a tricky situation. If the kids (especially the youngest) don't go to visit their mother, then she could go to court and claim their father is alienating them from her. Most children are extremely reluctant to visit the non-custodial, out-of-state parent - but the general attitude is that each parent has an obligation to support the other parent's relationship with the children. Depending on how vindictive she is, she could actually file for custody just to try to hurt you guys (and not because she would think she's the better parent). She might not get custody, but I'd be willing to bet she'd get pretty liberal court-ordered visitation unless there are some really big skeletons in her closet.

Get a lawyer. Go to court before she can (essentially, win the race to the court house). Get a court order before you deny her visitation - perhaps you could get an order requiring HER to come to them considering her changed family situation.

If she signed over custody 100% they don't even need to talk to her on the phone (unless stipulated in the papers). They don't need an emotionally munipulative adult dragging their lives down and preying on their happiness that they have worked to find. The mother wanted out, good-bye. It could be far more hurtful to have her in their life. I think it is ok to teach them to stay away from hurtful people.

Legally since she signed over custody and there is no stipulation for visitation, the children DO NOT have to see her. She could go to court for a visitation stipulation, which she has a right to regardless of whether or not she pays child support or has custody. However, since the children are old enough no judge would order visitation without the children wanting to go.

Legally, there is not much she can push for, and the children do not have to go. I would suggest that their father talk with a lawyer to see how he can protect the children from visitations they don't want.

Are there court papers which outline visitation rights and if the mother has been granted visitation rights by the court how is the visitation to be handled? Anything ordered by the court has to be followed or the father of the children has to go back to court to have the order changed. I suggest that even if visitation is not specifically addressed in the order it can still be required if the mother pushes for it. I think that the only time visitation would not be required is if the order states that there will be no visitation.

The children's father needs to take the court order to an attorney for advice before he does anything else.

If the mother volunarily relinquished her parental rights the situation is different. Once rights are relinquished the parent has no rights re: the children. However signing over custody means that she has only relinquished custody and she continues to have other rights. This is an important difference that needs to considered.

An attorney should be able to help answer the visitation requirment if it's not clearly stated in the court order.

I agree that sending the children to another state to visit an absent mother and a step-father that no one in this state knows is a bad idea especially when the children strongly object to going. Has your son tried to work out a compromise with his ex?

Once the father knows his children's mother's legal standing in regards to the child(ren) he can then decide how to handle the visitation in a legal manner. If visitation in the other state is legally required then he should talk with a mental health professional who deals with visitation issues to see how he can best help his children while not alienating their mother.

Because she is their mother she is an important part of their emotional well being even if she's inappropriate in many ways. I'm glad to read that they have been having some visits and that you and their father have facilitated them.

I agree with others who've suggested that a trusted adult go with the children or be their primary caretaker while the children are visiting or that the mother and her new husband visit here. Since they have visited other relatives when they visited with their mother would a relative living in that city be able to "supervise?"

This is a difficult situation! I think that the most important factor is maintaining a reasonably good relationship between the mother and her children. Since I don't know any of you I do not know how this can be done. A point blank refusal to send the children is not the answer.

Hey C.,

I think the advice from Julie below is the best - have a lawyer read the court papers and tell you and your son what the children's mother could demand or not demand based on what the documents say.

If there are any loopholes, spend the money to close them up before you announce any decisions or enter into dialogue with the mother.

Boy, my heart goes out to all of you, especially your grandchildren. They are old enough to have an opinion about all of this and if they don't want to go visit their mom, this won't magically change by their being forced to go visit her. If anything, it would only drive them further away from her.

While divorce can happen to the best of people, it is never the children's fault and the parents should do whatever they can to make the process as stress-free as possible.

Sounds like you've been a loving and stable presence in their lives. God bless you with all of this.

Your grandson is old enough that if there was a court battle the judge would listen to him. I went through something similar when I was about his age. My mom married a child molester and I didn't want anything to do with him or her because of that. My dad had custody of me and never MADE me go. It was always my choice. If mom wants to see them so bad then maybe she should come up here and visit. That way the kids are in their comfort zone and help/support is right there if they need it. I wouldn't make them go if they dont want to, they obviously feel very strongly about this and forcing them could make matters worse.

C.,

I think at this point the kids are old enough to make their own decisions. If they don't want to visit their Mom. they shouldn't be forced to, or be made to feel guilty for not wanting to visit. Like you said, she gave up her custody rights, and hasn't asked for visitations. Someone needs to tell this woman to back off, and leave her kids alone if they choose not to see her.

You and/or your son need to step up and protect these precious angels and their right to not see someone that is toxic in their lives.

Hope this helps,
Melissa

Wow, it sounds like these kids have been through a lot over the years.
Even though the kids don't want to see their mother, if there is a court ordered visitation, the father needs to follow it or he'll be in trouble through the courts.
I suggest, and this is the first thought I had, that he go out of state WITH them and stay with them in a hotel.
If this is too expensive or impossible, then he should insist that the mother come here. She did sign over custody, and they live in a different state from her.
I am not sure, but this is a LEGAL question. There are a lot of emotions involved, but essentially, you have to figure out the best way to protect these kids. They don't WANT to go, but how can your family best make it work so everyone gets a little of what they want?
Compromise is an important lesson to teach them. Each one of the people involved here needs something. Figure out what it is and go from there.
I would have the father consult with a family law lawyer or get some free legal advice.
Good luck.

Wow, what an unfortunate mess. I believe it's not inappropriate to teach them BOTH that compromise is important (they might agree to see her IF it's she who comes to visit) but ALSO that there will be people in their lives to whom they will need to limit their exposure. (Anyone can physically create a child, but some people are just not healthy for children to be around. Being the person related to them doesn't make it untrue.)

I feel the children's discomfort should be taken heavily into account. Something is squicking them out. It doesn't sound like they are just being bratty or playing favorites. And she agreed to give up custody, so I feel that when she signed them over she also signed off on the right to pressure them into visiting her. She needs to stop guilting them and ask herself why they don't want to visit.

The kids probably have good reason for not wanting to go visit her. It didn't do your son any good; why torment and harass these poor kids? If she was a decent mother, she wouldn't have lost custody. Blood relation does not a good parent make. They don't need toxic people in their lives. If she really wants to see them, she can come and see them. Is she trying to save her own face by parading them around in front of other relatives? They don't need to be used, and they don't need to be around some new husband that gives them the creeps.

I guess Mom has made bad choices in the past and they don't trust her any more. I wouldn't push the issue. It could be the new "dad" is weird. Why would they want to get to know another dad just to have him leave their life again? Why should you take the chance of having them go there to be abused?

I would go with their decision if I were you. They are old enough to know what they want and what it good and what isn't, thanks to your training.

It's Mom's fault that she didn't pursue a relationship with her children, not theirs. They don't need her, because she has made herself scarce. Mom is just going to have to grow up and live with that fact. We all have to live with the consequences of bad choice we have made.

C.,

Sounds like you know that you need to encourage the children to follow their instincts. If they are not comfortable, I would not make them go...can create more problems for all concerned and less trust by kids.

encourage their mom/step-dad to visit and stay in hotel so kids can go swimming with them in neutral territory to start process of getting re-aquainted.

Good luck,
T.

That is thier decision, and they are old enough to make it. I really wouldnt force the issue with them. Kids are smart and if there is some reaso that they feel uncomfotable with thier new Step dad then the mom should come to them and do her best to make them comfortable with the situation. Her giving the kids guilt trips to make them come is not ok. If she wants to see them then she needs to make the effort. It is not up to the ex husband to make it for her. When she signed over custody to her ex husband and moved away, that was he decision she made. Good Luck.

This is such a tough situation. On the one hand, the mother is not really in their lives. On the other, she still wants to be a part of their lives. Although you say that she relinquished custody, there is no child support, and no visitation in the current set of papers, you did not say that she relinquished her parental rights. Him having 100% custody does not mean she has no rights at all. Consult an attorney.

The children really aren't old enough to make the decision about whether or not they see the mother. Typically, with visitation orders, the guidelines for the youngest child apply. In this case, the 8 year old would dictate the guidelines. Also, to travel unaccompanied out of state at this age in these days is a ridiculous request by her.

If she applies for visitation, she would have a tough time getting a judge to agree to out-of-state visitation at this time. A judge may only agree to supervised visitation in the home state and/or telephonic visitation for a period of time. He/she may also appoint a Guardian ad Litem (GAL) who can observe the children as a non-prejudiced third party and can make recommendations to the court regarding the mother's (and father's) involvement with them. This is assuming that she goes through the court system.

As a good faith measure, their father may want to encourage visitation with the mother in a controlled atmosphere. If she really wants to be more involved in their lives, and your son agrees, then the mother needs to come to the children with the stepfather in tow. They should stay elsewhere, so the children can feel comfortable that they don't have to be surrounded by them. Ease into the transition in a safe setting. Don't force travelling to the mother's place unless the children express an interest in doing so.

You are right to want to protect them and every child should be so lucky to have a grandmother like you.

I would say if they are having reservations about visiting their mother, that there is a very good reason for it, whatever it may be. When she signed over custody was there any stipulation on how visitation would work, or if there would even be any? I would urge you to tell her something like the kids are not comfortable around her because they don't know her very well (i'm guessing on this part) and definately don't know her new husband, who they are VERY nervous about meeting and she will have to bring her new husband up here to meet them a few times so they will feel better about coming down to visit her. You might also throw in that when she tries to make them feel guilty about it, it has the opposite effect as she is going for. I just cannot see forcing kids to visit someone who they are nervous about seeing, especially alone. Perhaps their dad can be a good resource for getting them to WANT to go see her...maybe he can think of something that would have made his visits more bearable that will work with the kids?

After working with childern in simalar situations, I can honestly say that if she wants to see the childern and them met their new step father, they should come to the childern. Not is it only hard to see her, as stated they hardly know her, then to top it off to met a stranger. You said how much they jave improved sence being with their father, sounds as if there was some negelect issues when they were with her,and then she gave them up, I think this would bethe main reason deep down the childern don't want to go. Even as small childern they don't forget the wrong that was done to them.
Also I would insest that she come to see the kids first before I send them off to stay with a stranger I know nothing about, except what she says. You hear to many horror storys about this kind of thing. So if I was the father, I would be the bad guy, and tell the mother if she wants to see the childern, she must come to them, He has custidy, and this is a place where he will make the rules and do what is best for his kids.
Please do not put the childern on the spot and cause them gulit. They have stated how they feel, so either she comes or drop it.
Good Luck
Childern always come first and need a strong person to always be there to back them up and stand up for their rights.

Sorry about the spelling :)