These Are Children, There Small Not Stupid....

Please also keep in mind that when you see things at different places, you don't know the circumstances. My son is on the autism spectrum. (You might have even seen us a few years back when he was 2-5. He would have looked like "one of those kids" you are referring to.) When these kids are in public places it's very difficult for them. It's sensory overload, but parents have errands they have to do too. "No" has no meaning when a spectrum child "is in the moment".

It's best not to judge other people. You are not walking in their shoes.

Totally agree!! Also when I see those comments referring to a 3, 4 or 5 yr old misbehaving and some folks on here say "aw they are just babies" eh NO actually they are not.

Yeah my dd will ALWAYS be my baby BUT I do not treat her or expect her to behave like one not even when she was 3, 4 or 5.

Sweetie, I literally want to come through the computer lines and Gibbs slap some of these moms. Part of the reasons accidents happen, kids run off, and children are so difficult to be around is because people have no clue just how much they really do understand at a very young age.

There are several reasons for this:

1. Too many parents are more worried about being their childs FRIEND rather than their parent.

2. Another issue is society in general...."we don't want to hurt little Johnny's feelings" so instead of punishing him for his rude/bad behavior - we tell him "oooh Johnny - that's not a good thing...don't do that..." or something else sugar coated so that he doesn't get the gist that what he did was wrong.

3. Many parents want to give their kids everything they DID NOT have growing up....so kids no longer have to EARN their way - they have a sense of entitlement. And parents themselves are trying to keep up with the Joneses instead of living within their means....so kids only know and see EXCESS instead of "we don't NEED that"...it's "I've GOT TO HAVE THAT"

4. Some parents fear CPS being called - as kids are being taught in school that being hit by your parent or punished by your parent is wrong and if they do that - to tell a teacher so they can help you....so when a kid doesn't get his way - he tells the teacher some elaborate story and BAM!! CPS is called...or worse - someone sees something they don't like you doing to your child and calls CPS (as happened to me with my daughter...she was crying, my hand was behind her neck (as it always was when she was young) and someone ASSUMED I was hurting her and called CPS...12 hours of medical exams and intense interrogations ruled out anything but still).

And lastly - society now wants to LABEL and NAME something - Johnnny is a BOY - boys have a tendency to be hyper - but instead of just saying - Johnny is a boy - society says - he's unruly, he's hyper - HE NEEDS MEDICATION....or he's GOT to be Autistic (this is NOT a slap to parents with Autism) because he does x, y and z....he can't just be normal - he's got to be or have SOMETHING.......

Amen. I get frustrated not just with the posts asking if the punishments are too harsh, (I agree, they're usually not enough or are right on) but also with the ones telling and pleading with moms not to do such and such (when someone has posted certain advice) as if the mama asking for advice can't choose what she wants to do!

I know there are instances where a child with learning challenges may have a more difficult time grasping even simple concepts, but the majority of children don't. I don't advocate punishing a child any certain way, but rather disciplines and consequences appropriate for that particular child and the situation. (My little guy, 26 months, ran into he street tonight, he didn't want to come in and stop playing. And while there were no cars out he got a spanking, which I hated to do, because his life is important to me and I want him to know the significance of what he did. I also talked to him and explained he could get hurt, as he understands "owwies" and "ouch.") If a child doesn't respond to time-outs or no dinner, find the consequence that works for him or her! Parenting requires true work on our parts, and can take time. Yet if parents allow a situation to get out of hand over months or even years, they seem to want a quick fix, which I don't get.

Even infants are aware of their environment, of causes and effects on it, and begin to manipulate (gasp!) it. If a (I'm going to hated for this, I know) 6 month old cries when anyone but mom holds her, she knows what she's doing by crying until mom, and not grandma or dad or anyone else comes. Studies, with real babies, have shown at 3 months they start to remember, and at 6 months they start putting 2 and 2 together and can become spoiled (yes, I said it) and cry to get their way not just for needs anymore, but for wants.

Because children are teachable from an age far younger than many people will acknowledge, they are often viewed in terms of "He's just a baby" or "I'm waiting until she can understand" and teachable moments are missed entirely. The independence we want our children to have often relegates responsibility and consequences for actions to the back burner, as we let them find their way and "just be kids." (Which, yes, they should be kids. They are in training for life and learning a little at a time, just as they do in school.) Yet we wonder why James is having trouble in Pre-K because he won't stop biting, or hitting, or kicking the other children and teachers, nothing can stop him and "he is normally such a sweet child." Maybe he was allowed to bite, hit and kick from the time he was a year and a half. Or when "My daughter, who's 4 1/2, is upset because all her friends know how to use the big potty. She been training for 6 months, but doesn't like the toilet and I don't want to further upset her by making her use it..." Hmmm, maybe she should have started potty training a year earlier? And we keep making excuses.

I so agree, children are not stupid, while, yes, they're small compared to us. But there is an entire person in that small package, capable of learning acceptable behaviors! They are like sponges absorbing everything around them, they can recite all the songs from their favorite TV show verbatim and perform all the dance moves, recite entire cartoon dialogs, and tell us what toys they want NOW, yet we think they can't understand "No, you may not kick your sister" or whatever they are doing that is unacceptable and allow it to continue because "I know he's not misbehaving on purpose..." And, that if we raise are voices to them and send them to time-out we're terrible parents?

I am raising my third child, and have helped raise 5 of my grandchildren. I have always respected the intelligence of all of them, and have expected them to learn and cooperate rather than insult their intelligence by setting low standards for them. We parents have been given the blessing, the privileged honor and tremendous responsibility of guiding, training and shaping our children's behaviors, and we do them a terrible disservice by not doing just that.

Sorry to go on and on, you touched a nerve, B. ; )

Our culture of treating children like fragile flowers leaves many new parents frightened of disciplining their children. Particularly for parents who are not naturally authoritarian, there is a real fear of doing permanent damage to their child's spirit. The truth is, kids are tough and resilient. It is fairly difficult to break a child's spirit, especially one of the more troublesome kids. It's not impossible certainly, but it takes a pretty concerted effort for a very long time. It's not the sort of thing you do by accident. I wish this was in more of the parenting books.....

I will also say that many young children have undiagnosed problems that really do impair their ability to follow directions. A child who can't sleep, or can't breathe, or is in pain, or isn't processing language well, or has a sensory processing problem, or whatever.....this kind of child will usually express their difficulties in the form of anger at their caregivers and temper tantrums. Kids (and adults) often use anger and aggression to cover up fear and frustration.

Parents of these types of kids often get blamed when disciplinary measures don't work. If a kid is screaming to manipulate their parents, certain disciplinary measures will work. If a kid is screaming because they are in pain, those same disciplinary measures are useless. It is often difficult for a parent to tell the difference. It nearly impossible for a stranger in the mall to tell the difference.

I spent a year and a half of professionals telling me that I just needed to be more clear and firm with my three year old son and he'd "behave". Now that he is eight, he has been diagnosed with asthma-related sleep deprivation, severe expressive and receptive language problems, dyspraxia, and probably severe learning disabilities as well. He's a smart, kind, brave, hard-working kid for whom *everything* is spectacularly difficult. His tantrums (which are going down) are from exhaustion and frustration, not defiance. He is truly doing the best that he can. Do I still hold him accountable for misbehavior? Of course. But I also try to have reasonable expectations for him. You don't ask a child with a sprained ankle to run a mile.

I still remember with pain those days when he was three and I punished him for refusing to go back to bed. He would scream and hit me. In truth, he desperately *wanted* to go back to bed. But he couldn't breathe well enough to sleep. He couldn't communicate well enough to tell me. The doctors all seemed to think I was just an inadequate parent. Finally, his asthma got bad enough that he was obviously wheezing. We took him to the ER. He got two steroid injections, and was given a mask with oxygen and lots of albuterol. His reaction? With relief, he curled up on my lap and fell asleep. All those nights of firm rules and sticker charts and lost privileges and time outs and spanks.... What he needed was not a harsher punishment. What he needed was oxygen.

I agree with you.

And I will say that I recently was one of the posters with a question, "What would your punishment be?" Surprisingly to me, most posters said, for my specific situation, no discipline - since my older child make a serious mistake and error in judgement, not intentional harm or bad behavior.

Although I was surprised, it was a good reality check for me. I tend to be extremely strict and disciplined with my kids. I expect a lot from them. However I also tend to forget that they are still kids - they are learning from their mistakes, they don't always have the same judgement capabilities that an adult would, etc.

So I am right there with you that I think too many parents let their kids act like animals. For me, the biggest annoyance is people who say, "Boys will be boys! or He's all boy!" As if that's a reason for them to run amok.

I find that I need to quietly deal with my annoyances with kids behavior or parents lack of control/discipline. Usually I am very, very outspoken. However I have been told on more than one occasion that I am too judgmental or make other parents feel badly...it's not worth losing friends over.

I think that the problem is really with the parents and not the children. While I don't think you need to beat kids into submission or anything like that, kids can and do meet the expectations that are put on them. The problem is, parents are failing to put any expectations on their kids when they are small, and think they'll suddenly learn manners, obedience and good behavior later on. They won't. It has to be expected of them right from the beginning. It doesn't need to be done harshly or with cruelty. Parents seem not to ever want their kids to cry and feel like a terrible parent for making them do so, and truly they are not doing their children any favors. It's easier for them to just say "yes" rather than implement discipline and let their child be unhappy for a little while, and then they wonder as the child gets older why they can never get the kid to listen, as if it's not their own fault. Kids are NOT traumatized by being expected to behave and having a consequence when they don't. I know it's hard, and I know that when you get home from work, the last thing you want is for that precious time you have with your kids to be spent in discipline mode or with them in punishment, but there were times that I had to do it. A lot of parents are not willing to.

Spanking is out of fashion so people focus on "not spanking" even if it means letting their kids develop outrageous behavior. This is just for the posts that say, "We've tried everything, time outs, taking things away, ignoring, redirecting, distracting, (insert any other completely mild meaningless action) and we just don't know why our child is still doing these things at age 5 and getting worse and worse".

Then there are people spanking, but they feel bad about it, so it's only randomly and rarely when they are angry and out or control because things have escalated and worn them down. Which is also not effective.

Then, since the 80s when the 50's Spock influenced theories went to the majority with the positive parenting outbreak books, there are the people totally reinventing the wheel (for decades now I know adults raised this way) deciding discipline in general isn't needed and children should "teach themselves" how to act, while you guide gently with positive reinforcement, endless repetition, and "setting a good example". Which would be fine if it worked.

I don't get it. A little calm, clear, consistent, FIRM discipline goes a long way and prevents all these things from getting out of hand. I have 3 non tantruming, non hitting, non whining, kids who listen under 5 years old, 3 different personalities, one super difficult, and they weren't "born easy". But since they KNOW what is not allowed, they focus on having fun 99% of the time instead of pushing boundaries all day. I can take them anywhere and we have a blast.

We travel a lot, and in countries where parents still use discipline, and the kids are actually good, it's a shame to look around at how people let their kids act here. We were in Tokyo recently, and saw several toddlers getting disciplined in public because there "it is a disgrace to let your child act badly". They have a fraction of our crime and almost no bad teenagers. The kids excel in school and they don't have all of our behavioral disorders. We were there for a Metallica concert, end even the heavy metal auditorium full of fans was quiet and orderly, and no lockers back stage because "no one steals". I've never seen a cleaner safer city. People are packed in like sardines, but they are gracious, orderly, and polite-INCLUDING the kids.

Yes, many people seem scared to discipline their own children and yes, it's frustrating to see and read about. My husband is a Student Resource Officer (a cop) in a middle school where kids just seem to be losing their minds. The parents get called in and either say,"He just won't listen to me, make him listen to me!" or "Take those cuffs of my child immediately, you a-hole, you don't have the right to put your hands on my child." Clearly, both of these scenarios are directly the fault of the parents as well as being the completely wrong way to raise a kid. I stand by my belief that there should be a test all humans must take in order to be granted the right to raise a child. It's the biggest, most important thing anyone can do

It bugs me too. I love the, how do I get my 7 year old out of my bed and in his own? Really, put him in his bed!!! Or dont let your kid sleep with you his whole life.
Or the my kid was being horrible and I gave him M&M's for breakfast!
Or hitting is normal, so dont sweat it when your kid physical abuses other kids. Its just a phase.

Ahhhhh! Drives me crazy! I want to call Nanny 911 on them.

Let he who is perfect cast the first stone. . . . be warry of the judgement you dole out on others.
No one has it together 100% of the time. sorry you are annoyed, but tend to your own kids and let the other parents do the same. . . (sounds snotty, but so true. who has time to worry about how the stranger in the mall is or is not tending to their children?)
While I have my own opinions on discipline, etc. I tend to share that opinion when asked - even when asked electronically. The parents are asking these questions on the forum because they didn't get an instruction manual, they are conflicted and maybe not as secure as you or I are in thier ability to discipline.
I hope you will continue to help folks who could learn from you on this site:) (Please don't read that as sarcasitc. I am serious. The differing opinions is what makes this a valuable resource in my view!)

Thank you! You're gonna love this: My friend called me one day pissed off because she has been called to a meeting with the teacher and principal at her daughters school (she was in Kindergarten and 5 years old). Turns out her daughter stabbed a classmate IN THE FACE with a sharpened pencil! And this was the SECOND TIME IT HAPPENED! I was surprised that she wasn't suspended or expelled or something more severe than a meeting and a last warning. But the kicker was my friends excuse: And I quote "Well she's only 5. They don't really have any self control at that age and don't know better." EXCUSE ME?!?! I was blown away by that! What 5 year old doesn't know better than that? Creating excuses like that are just going to make major problems for both of them! I have never looked at my friend the same way since and I honestly don't plan to get our girls together again anytime soon.

I have to agree! I am expecting the USA to have to build a bunch of prisons in the coming years.

I am so glad you posted this and I could not agree with you more. I am a parent so that is what I do. It isn't always fun to say no and to discipline my children, but they have to learn.

No one is born knowing how to be a parent.
Parents and their children are learning side by side and it's not always a smooth process.
It's true some kids are more easy going than others.
And some parents never really get the hang of being in charge (and let the kids rule the roost - usually a disaster).
We don't have the close knit families that we use to have 30-40 years ago so advice from Grandma and older women is harder to pass down to the next generation.
But this site helps a lot.
It's a great place where people who've been through it can offer some insight on what might be going on, and if a question asker is open to some of the answers - a workable solution might be reached.

I just wanted to say I agree with Susan M. Sometimes it has nothing to do with the lack of discipline at all. Some of these kids have autism, severe adhd, or other neurological disorders and they can't help it. It's really easy for others to judge these kids who are "acting out" because they "look" normal. I'm not saying that this is the case with all these children but try not to put them all in together. I know this because I used to do that but now that I have a child who has a neurological issue I have more of an understanding. "That kid" is my kid. And trust me we are doing everything we can with her from medication, to therapy and behavior modification. But no matter what we do, she still has these "meltdowns". Just trying to give a different perspective is all.

AMEN! Too many parents are letting the kids run the house. It's crazy! Not to mention disrespectful. Those kids are going to grow up and either get into trouble or be in serious shock that the world DOESN'T revolve around them.
Like I said in another post "spare the rod, spoil the child".

Bugs me, too. I've been working in a middle school. Sadly,The children are given full run of everything half the time, there are some attempts to bring order, but there are seldom strong enough consequences for bad behavior. Like one poster said, parents are afraid to discipline their children and too many are trying to be their friends.Instead of a student reaping natural consequences the teacher is asked 'what were you doing to get little Zlatnick so upset?' (Sorry to anyone who has a child with this name, I thought it was fairly neutral and not well known). Frightening really. They want to be told no, daring us, almost sometimes and we negotiate way too much. If they do not know their boundaries now, they will have a hard time learning them later. Thanks for bringing this up.

I would agree to an extent. I'm always saying "give credit where credit is do". 3 and 4 is old enough to know what's going on. I have memories of that age, my daughter remembers things from around 2 1/2. Every now and then they will do or say something that "outs" their level of understanding. I treat my 4 yo with respect and I expect it in return. Obviously, she's not perfect, but she sure knows what's right and what is expected of her behavior wise. I try to be consistent in my expectations and the consequences for bad choices. I think that is key. Whatever discipline tactic you use, you have to have consistency or it is all for not.

I agree 100% with Cheryl O.
UGH!!! Be the parent already!! people are afraid to discipline due to CPS. Even the children are taught to call the cops or cps if the parents do anything!

Most parents today don't want to go to the trouble of consistently disciplining their children since many of these parents need discipline themselves. They are too busy, and choose to give their kids toys, games, videos to entertain them. Much of the behavior of children today is a reflection of what they watch on TV. I reared 5, one of which was ADHD. It was a 24/7 "school." I was exhausted most of the time, but our children grew up and are good, responsible adults. I never allowed my daughter's ADHD to be used to excuse her bad behavior. She was punished or rewarded according to her behavior. But the most important words are CONSISTENCY and BOUNDARIES. Once a parent sets the boundaries and is consistent in enforcing them, children are happier and nicer to be around. Almost everyday I see children who are crying for someone to tell them STOP! Now I have dogs. They obey, don't talk back, and I've not had to send any one of them to college! I'm thinking maybe I should have opted for dogs instead of children! At the very least, some prospective parents should consider this.

Yep, it's annoying. I have three kids (born 2 and 3 years apart) and I never had to deal with the kind of stuff a lot of these moms complain about. It wasn't even a matter of discipline, I think I just taught them how to behave from day one. I honestly cannot remember "punishing" any of my kids until they were much older, like 8 or 9. Of course they weren't perfect (they would fight and cry and pout, mostly with each other) but they didn't whine (I wouldn't allow it it) and they certainly never hit me or threw a tantrum in a public place! And my youngest is ADHD.
But you do need to keep in mind that when you see a kid "out of control" there may be more going on than you know, like autism.

LOL! Sorry to laugh, but I understand... I am amazed you didn't get more angry responses to this... Kudos for that to all of you!!!! I made a comment about how I think Americans are too lax in their potty training the other day and got my head bit off by one of the moms I socialize with... general statement... got my head handed to me.

I have to say, you may see me with my daughter at a store and if she starts in, I just stand there and look at her. We don't move until she gets over it and I mean totally quiet! I could care less what people think of me, but I will not be held hostage by her or society in any situation and I will not get overly frustrated with it. She has to learn fits are not acceptable and she has to make the decision to STOP. We have done this since she was tiny in the shopping cart.. We have very few of these incidents now at age 4.

I really think people are too concerned about what other people think these days! When my daughter sees other kids throwing fits I make a comment about how annoying that is ask her if she likes the way that kid is acting. Her response is, "No, that kid is a cry baby and I don't want to be that way." I don't correct this. Her opinion is spot on! :0)

A lot of interesting responses. And certainly you have to realize that you don't know anything about the situation (at least those you witness personally), like if a child has learning differences, etc. But ultimately you are correct . . . we as a nation have become very weak in our child disciplinary techniques. And I don't even mean physical discipline . . . too many parents have become way too lenient and permissive. I've watched Super Nanny and I think "I don't get it, you're the parent, act like it!" Guess what? I do yell at my kids now and again . . . when trying to reason has failed. And I don't make idle/useless threats . . . so my kids take me seriously when I lay out the consequences for their actions. That one irks me the most . . . when a parent says "if you do that one more time then I'll . . . (fill in the blank)" and of course the kid does it but the parent doesn't follow through. Or if parents don't show a united front (so of course a child learns to play one parent against the other . . . I don't mean in a vindictive way), or another person (grandmother, aunt, etc.) tries to undermine a parent's discipline (so of course if mommy/daddy say no, grandma will say yes).

It's a tricky landscape . . . but too often today parents are busy trying to be their child's friend rather than their parent.

Kudo to you for saying it! :)

I agree with you to a certain extent. I think in general, parents of today are too soft & let their kids run all over them. They are afraid they'll "damage their psyche" or that their kids will be mad at them. As a result, most kids I see, too, are out of control.

I think some parents second guess themselves. Or this is a great place to get advice from moms of teens who have kept a close and open relationship with their teens and how they did it. No kids are not stupid, but each kid is different and everyone parents differently. I asked a question the other day about getting my daughter to clean her room. What I was doing was not working. I normally follow through on punishments, but it was her birthday weekend...so I let it slide. But to come on here and ask what other parents have done to succeed in some of the same battles is what this site is for, right? Some things are obvious I think - getting the 3 year old off of the pacifier, or how to stop nursing a 4 year old, or how to get kids to respect adults...things along those lines. But like I said, each family is a different dynamic and if you havent raised your 3 or 4 year old to be responsible and act like they should, then they will still be ignorant to some facts of life.

Figuring out why the child is behaving the way they are is the most important. See principle # 7 from Rebecca Thomas' The Consciously PArenting Project. Kids don't do anything without a reason. It is my job as a mother to figure out what my children need that they are not getting. "A met need will go away, an unmet need is here to stay." If a child is hitting or biting, there is always something else going on that needs to be explored.

Principle #1: Children unfold neurosequentially: A need when met will go away; a need unmet is here to stay. Quality, connected relationships allow for the unfolding.

Principle #2: Behavior reflects the internal state of the individual and the relationship's level of connection. All behavior is a communication.

Principle #3: Behaviors occur on a continuum: Behaviors in children (and parents, too) correlate to the parent's own neurodevelopment and attachment status.

Principle #4: Parental interpretation of behaviors come from both a conscious and subconscious place, resulting in positive or negative neurophysiologic feedback loops.

Principle #5: All individuals have a right and a responsibility to learn to express their feelings appropriately. Feelings allow us to connect to our internal guidance system.

Principle #6: Children need boundaries. We can bring our children back into the boundaries set through our relationship- loving influence, rather than control and fear- if we are aware of ourselves. (Is this about you? Is this about them?)

Principle #7: The relationship is more important than any behavioral intervention, consequence, or punishment.

Principle #8: No man is an island: We need to create communities of support for ourselves and for our children. We need to take care of ourselves so that we can take care of our children.

I agree - most parents are too permissive - then complain that they have children who don't respect others, don't listen and are hurting others. Punishments are meant to be more harsh when the action causes pain or danger to self or others.

You know kids that age when they are into something sometimes really don't hear you. Also that is the age they test there parents. And guess what if they are tired or hungry they are going to have melt downs. They are learning. They are not robots. I see more problems with kids from 3rd grade on being bullies. And the parent and the school codone it. They say the other kids needs to learn to stand up for themselves. When in reality the bully parents and kids need to learn to behave in society.

In general I agree with you but you also may be viewing isolated instances etc. It's easy to judge people on a quick glimpse - ie: you incorrectly spelled "they're" as "there" in the headline of your post...

No one teaches good parenting. It has to be learned. Back in the day when I was a baby Dr. Spock was the answer. Every Mom I knew had a Dr. Spock baby book. Now there are so many ideas many of them conflicting a parent can read and over read and end up not knowing what to do.

I JUST read an article about this type of parenting in The Atlantic. Here is a link.

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/1969/12/how-t...

You are sooo wound up on things that are out of your control. Take a deep breathe and exhale. You are teaching your kids to have no empathy and compassion if they are asking "why is that boy doing that?" Instead of trying to control other's behavior, teach your kids your values and empathy.....then we would have a great future. If we all had empathy......wars would end!

S.

Try not to get yourself so worked up about it... What are you going to do about it? You're going to stress yourself out and make yourself crazy if you go through life worrying about it. It is what it is - not everyone in the world is going to raise their children the "right" way (whatever way that is!) - not ever. Sigh, shake your head and move on.