My daughter, 16, was suspended from school yesterday. I am requesting a hearing with the school board to appeal/fight the decision. My question is, for those who have experience with this, should I get an attorney?
I looked on the school's website ( district, not her specific school) to find out how etc, so I know the how to request a hearing etc; I just don't know if we would fair better with representation.
The Assistant Principal said in the conference yesterday that it was a level 25 Title 4 offense and that suspension was mandatory. I couldn't find anything about levels, but did find out what the different titles are. Per reading them, I believe what she did could also be defined by Title 1 offenses, where suspension isn't mandatory. Also, it states that the least severe punishment should be used, esp in first and second offenses. The goal is to remediate the behavior, with as little disuption to the learning process, while still preserving the safety of the students.
She has never been in trouble before and is on the honor roll. In fact she was one grade shy of straight A's this report card. She takes honor level classes and for the most part is a year ahead of schedule. She is on the dance team, which she helped start freshman year with another friend. She went to China this past summer with a program that her Chinese teacher recommended her for and said teacher is trying to get her into another one for summer of 2014. She is also a junior, so college applications etc are right around the corner. I do not want this messing up her future.
I just don't know if having an attorney argue these points to the school board would yield better results. So if anyone has had experience with this, please advise.
TIA
ETA: She was not fighting, stealing or cheating or anything like that, in fact, I've never heard of someone being suspended for what she did.
Oh and I tried to get her in school suspension, since that doesn't effect college apps etc, but the Assistant Principle said no. I would really prefer to have her in school b/c her course load is so heavy and missing days will put her far behind.
I didn't go into details mainly b/c my question was about whether or not we should have representation or if would help to have it. My question would've been the same if she had been fighting or stealing. I just mentioned those b/c in my book, those are the most egregious offenses. Although, man, some of the things listed under each Title are out there and I couldn't imagine her doing those either. NOt everything that a child does warrants suspension, it may not be right and deserves action, but not one so severe.
I appreciate the responses to my question. I do not have a lot of money, but will do what is necessary. I have a few friends from high school that are attorneys and will reach out to them. I didn't think about them earlier before I posted my question.
No, there is no real particular reason why I didn't tell what she did. Again, I don't feel that it was necessary for my question to be answered. Not sure why some are jumping to bad conclusions.
@ Momma W thank you. Your response is great. It was for 5 days. If, the suspension didn't go on her record and possibly affect college applications, I would let it go. I agree that you really don't want to make a fuss if you don't have to. Sometimes that can make more problems than needed. For now, I have a call into the principle. My goal/plan is to talk with her again and have in hand the definitions and offenses for each tier, in hopes that we can do something that doesn't go on her permanent record. Yesterday I had no idea what the titles/tiers were and couldn't say anything about them really.
Again thanks, all for advice.
Title 4 offenses range from sounding a false alarm to plotting fights to contaminating food to sexual harassment and more. Some offenses are repeated on each tier, but the more a child does them, the more severe the punishment can be.
I could write what she did, but won't. Again, I appreciate those who answered my question. To the others who wish to speculate and assume it was really bad....have fun. People have vivid imaginations!
@ Sadie, thanks.. that gives me hope. I'm not worried about her being home for a few days, heck our house is getting a real good cleaning right now! I was more concerned about college applications and scholarships. To hear that someone had it happened and college really wasn't affect by it, makes me feel a lot better.
By leaving out the most important detail you are making it very difficult to give honest advice. If I know what she did I could offer my opinion of whether or not I would hire an attorney.
If you agree that she broke the rules and is being punished for it. Exactly what impact will this have on her after the suspension is over? Again I am wondering why would you need an attorney?
I would find out what the school has done in the past. The history of punishments that they have given. I don't see that that should be a problem-they can leave out specifics and names.
I think you have a disadvantage right out of the gate since all the info the principal has isn't on the website for you to look at. Do they give out a student handbook that outlines all this stuff? If not I'd start from square 1 asking for the paperwork on the different offenses and their guidelines. If you see that given the offense it could fall into a different level then yes you need to push the school to take another look at this. I wouldn't lawyer up because it could cause the school to not back down.
Without any idea of what she actually did, I cannot recommend legal representation or not.
Why are you so keen on omitting her offense? I suggest that your daughter contact all of her instructors to obtain the work she needs to do to stay caught up. She's the one who got suspended and she's the one who should be dealing with the consequences.
If you can't even state clearly what she did, then I have to agree with the suspension.
What I find troubling is that you feel free to mention fighting, stealing and cheating....but you can't bring yourself to type her offense.
Sounds like it was a bigger deal than you're letting on.
Oh M....that is so difficult to see such a model student get a harsh punishment.
But, please let the school take care of it. I think legal counsel is over the top in a one day suspension if she in fact did what she is accused of doing. Don't minimalize what she did.
She (and you) needs to see that simply having good behavior 99% of the time, outstanding grades and involvement in extra curriculars does not warrant special treatment.
This one time suspension might be what she really needs to keep her from committing a more heinous act in the future. I don't know what she did and I don't know her, and I don't need to know what she did so I am just throwing this out there. This might just be a little dose of reality to keep her from dabbling in offensive behavior in the future when the college world and all its splendor opens up to her.
I am so sorry. It does make our M. heart ache at times to see our kids make poor choices. But, we have to let them see the consequences to their actions. It hurts in the moment to watch them endure it...but they usually come out stronger and more focused on keeping their slate clean in the future.
My gut says to let it be. She is a model student without a rap sheet. I can't see this muddying the waters for her future if she learns her lesson and is squeaky clean from this day forward. She needs the support of teachers to write her letters of recommendation. It will make her more glowing in their eyes if she pays the price and is repentant.
I have seen parents cause a ruckus at school and it really gets teachers and the administration's feathers ruffled. She is at a crucial year in school..she doesn't need ruffled feathers. Usually when parents are on board with siding with disciplining where it is due, then the teachers and administration will be on your side the rest of the time.
She did the "crime"...let her do the time. It is only one day. Have her work her butt off today and show she has remorse then go back with her head held high and make the rest of the year her best yet. Don't drag it out for her.
But..if she swears that she didn't do what she is accused of doing then for sure...I would fight the good fight and nothing would hold back this M. bear!
Good luck and best wishes!!
The fact that she's a good student, or a first time offender, is irrelevant in my opinion. A person doesn't get to not pay a speeding ticket and go to traffic school just because up to that point they have always been a perfect driver.
You break the rules, you pay the price.
It doesn't matter whether or not you "like" the rules, or even agree with them, the rules are there for a reason.
Hiring a lawyer seems over the top and just teaches your daughter that she's above the law, and above suffering the consequences of her choices.
Welp, you don't want to tell us what she did...so I am not going to tell you what you should do.
No. Let the school punish her as they see fit. support the school and even if YOU and she feel the punishment is "unfair" - tough. That is life. Some punishments are unfair. If she wanted to avoid the punishment, she shouldn't have broken the rule, or whatever.
Don't enable to her to feel that somehow she is owed some special dispensation because she makes good grades, is your daughter or whatever lame excuse comes into mind.
Reinforce the discipline and sentence the school handed down and go beyond. Maybe she should be grounded during her OSS??
This does not come lightly - I was in your daughter's shoes and if my mom bailed me out, I would not have got the lesson.
FYI: For college, I went with scholarships, no one asked about my one infraction and those that did, I if it ever came up I was able to tell whoever it was one of the best learning experiences EVER and because I had a story of handling my punishment with grace and humility, it made me a stronger, more mature candidate for programs and higher learning.
This is one of those moments where you need to extract yourself from your child's life and let her face her punishment like the young adult she is.
So, um, what did she do? You went pretty far out of your way to not say what she was suspended for.
The benefit of an attorney is their knowledge of law and the ability to argue their side. I doubt you will find an attorney that specializes in school rules.
What she did is very relevant to the answer. A kindergartner was suspended for bringing in a plastic knife. I could see bringing in an attorney not because of the school proceedings but to say hey, we are talking civil suit here.
You won't say which leads most of us to believe it is something that the child should be suspended for but you just didn't know it was against the rules. In that case an attorney won't help at all.
The thing you seem to be missing in your refusal to say what she did is we all have kids. Some of us have adult kids, some of those kids were suspended or had friends that were. We know how schools rule or what got some kid off but we can't help you if you don't say what happened.
All of your going on about I won't say makes it seem like it is something you know your kid should be punished for but your only concern is it going on her record. If that is the case understand that schools are not like a speeding ticket. You can't pay the price but get something else on the record.
I am voting for smoking as the offense.
It really depends on what she did. With certain activities there is just no wiggle room when it comes to a defense whether you have an attorney or not.
Can you keep your emotions in check? Are you kind of whiny...'This isn't fair. MY daughter deserves better. It isn't HER fault.'? Are you articulate? Do you understand the rules of the district? If the answers are yes, no, yes, yes, then you probably do not need an attorney.
For what it is worth, most universities/colleges do not ask about suspensions or disciplinary records. Assuming that she isn't being charged criminally, she should be just fine. So if this is just a few days suspension, making a fuss about things isn't worth it.
if your kid did something wrong then she should get the punishment regardless.
it depends largely on your knowledge of the school board's rules, and your ability to stay calm and unemotional.
if you're confident about your ability to quote chapter and verse, and aren't going to get upset or shaky or angry, go in on your own. but if you're not (and most of us aren't) it couldn't hurt to get an attorney.
khairete
S.
Have you (or has she) spoken to her guidance counselor about what impact, if any, this will have on her college applications?
Have you spoken to the admissions people at the schools she's applying to?
I would only spend the time, energy and money on this if it was going to have a real impact on her college admissions, otherwise I'd let it go and let her take the punishment. If she's a good student she should be able to make up the work she misses while she's suspended. She can always go in at lunch or after school when she returns to get any extra help she needs with what she missed.
Well for starters, we don't know what she did. We can't give advice based on your question.
You say she wasn't fighting, stealing or cheating.... Great... The school had some sort of justification to suspend her. They can't just decide to suspend someone for no valid reason.
IF I felt my child was wrongly suspended and whatever she was suspended for was not illegal, unethical, or something she may have inadvertently participated in.... I would have my counsel be with me. However, the counsel will not be able to do anything about it if the school was justified in the suspension.
We have regular legal counsel we work with routinely due to corporate negotiations, contracts, etc with our company so it is not that big of a deal or expense to just ask a question since the counsel is technically on my payroll anyway.
It sounds like she is a good kid and maybe made a stupid mistake. You are correct in that she is in a critical age group for college apps etc.
Good luck.
You do the crime be prepared to do the time.
As for her college record, know that college is a clean slate. They look at your test scores first, then your transcripts (grades) then perhaps after you have been accepted they consider your file. What I love about college is that it really is a clean slate. Colleges understand that who you are in highschool may have nothing to do with who you are trying to become by joining their institution.
Suspension isn't the end of the world and it isn't something I would fight if my kid were guilty of the offense. In my home I have rules which should be obeyed and when broken there are consequences and it is the same at he school. Punishment isn't a bad thing it's just a thing. It's a consequence for an action or an inaction.
My son got a suspension when he was a junior in highschool. He now attends one of the top engineering schools in the country. Yes I was upset about his suspension but again it was his punishment for his crime. Not the end of the world and really didn't matter at all when it came to college preparation time.
Why don't you say what she did?
Unless the school administration is crazy, maybe the suspension is warranted to some degree?
Ya know, suspension is usually three days. Even if the suspension isn't warranted, do you really want to go through all that so your daughter doesn't have to stay home for three days?
I'd say to my daughter, "I don't agree with this suspension, but don't do (offense) again. While you're at home for three days, let's do _____, or why don't you do ___(get caught up on your homework/read a book/watch a movie)___."
This is just a suspension, not a criminal record she's going to carry with her for the rest of her life.
I suggest you let her endure the suspension and learn whatever life lessons she can from it. It's not good to overprotect your child, and you shouldn't waste precious school, and your own, funds on something which is ultimately trivial.
There is no way I would spend hundreds or thousands of dollars hiring a lawyer so my kid didn't have to stay home from school for three days. I think you should lighten up.
p.s. The only reason I can imagine getting legal representation is for sexual discrimination, as mentioned below.
Honestly, if you can afford it (it doesn't come cheap), it never hurts to have legal representation. I've seen a number of situations (not involving schools) where having a lawyer makes all the difference in the world.
Most decent attorneys will do an initial consultation without charge. So you don't stand to lose anything by at least sitting down with a few people.
One thing to know, though, is that your daughter hasn't been accused -- in either criminal or civil court. Schools operate on the basis of in loco parentis, meaning they have all the rights that parents do during the school day. It's possible that your only true legal recourse would be to sue the school. But a lawyer should be able to lay out your true options. And sometimes just a call from someone with Esq. after his/her name will put the fear of God into an institution.
My fear about you walking in to the school with a lawyer would be that you put the school on the defense. If you walk in, guns blazing, it might make the school officials want to defend their position all the more.
If you approach the school on your own with your concerns, the research you've done and with a remorseful daughter, you might stand a better chance.
If you approach the situation with more of a "Can we work together?" rather than a "I have legal representation and an willing to sue" attitude, you might receive a better response. You could always hire an attorney if your initial hearing doesn't go well.
Gosh hard to say not having more info. I would consider going without an attorney if I felt sure our daughter was innocent of the violation they are stating. If she did do whatever they say she did, then I would take an Attorney to see if that person could negotiate some stipulations to protect her privacy.
If I was worried that she was not going to be heard or I felt like the school has a record of suspending without cause then! I would at least speak with an attorney to see what they have to say.
Mom, always follow your own heart and brain. You are there, you know your child. You do what needs to be done so that there are no regrets on your part.
It's not a bad idea to talk to an attorney who's done this type of work before. That's the important part. Not every attorney is familiar with school board regulations and if you pick someone who hasn't worked with a school suspension before, you're basically just paying someone smart to read through the regulations like you could have done yourself.
One of my cousins is a lawyer in NY who represents families at suspension hearings from time to time. She's had really good success at lessening penalties for the students, from the stories I hear.
PS. Like everyone else... I can't help but ask: what the heck did she do?? (my curiosity mostly stems from whether it's an offense where the school district has leeway - or if it's something so egregious that you'll only make it worse by arguing her case)
Well, you're reluctant to reveal her offense, and I would think knowing that would be essential for answering your question.
You can probably call & get a free legal consult.
I hate questions like this, where you the parent wants advice, but won't offer up the real deal, the facts and circumstances of what happened...
How do we know if you need an attorney if you won't tell us what really occurred???
All I see from your post is an over worried, obsessive, protective mother covering her daughter's behind to protect her precious future.
You can go on sighting every school title you deem unjust or other behaviors that are egregious, but they don't apply unless we know what your daughter did to deserve this punishment.
So, no advice, unless you're willing to tell the truth. And from the way you are so focused about her future, I don't think you are willing to see your daughter's behavior for what it truly is.
I would not get a lawyer if she did in fact do the action. I can see that the punishment might not be fair, but that is how things go in life. I agree with another post that accepting her punishment gracefully would be better. The parents getting a lawyer could look worse in the eye of college boards. It is not like you are denying she did 'something' you are just trying to get a punishment you think is fair.
The school is much more powerful and not scared of lawyers. If you go the lawyer route it will end up costing a lot and most likely not get resolved until she is in college. Not sure if I would pick this battle to fight.
My school had a rule our shirts could not be untuck. I had a small waist and big hips so I would get 6 work hours some days. Sure it is not fair that I needed to hire a seamstress to fix my skirt so the shirt would stay, but that was life (i was also going through a rebel faze letting my shirt be untucked). Picking a rose would get you suspended. All the girls I knew who got suspended still got into tire one and some ivy league schools. Heck the school president was caught drinking after the prom. She had to stand up in from of the student body and tell all of us what she did then announce the new school president along with being suspended. She went on to Stanford.
Representation may be helpful- it depends on the nature of the offense and the documentation and also how widely publicized the consequences for offense might be. You might consult with an attorney and then decide whether you should bring representation. How long is the suspension and will she receives zeros for classes for each day that she misses? That is a concern because it may negatively impact her grades and her GPA. That will impact her class ranking and may impact college entrance or scholarships. I always try to stick up for my kids when I feel they are in the right, but I have always tried to pick my battles carefully. There are some issues that are not worth fighting about How quickly can you get a hearing? She may have already served her suspension before you can meet about it. Then you may just be talking about getting it expunged from her record.
I don't have any experience with this, but I guess it can't hurt to talk with a legal person about it. On the other hand, I'm not sure if a legal person is the correct person to talk to. Have you spoken with the principal about what happened to see if they may be willing to lessen the punishment? Maybe ask for an appeal? I would try and have a conversation with the principal and if that doesn't work, I would talk with someone from the district. Fortunately, we have a pretty reasonable principal, but I've been at other schools, where that isn't the case. Good luck to your daughter.
What did she do? I think the only way you're going to get good answers to your question is to know what she did. This is anonymous...
Also, how long is she suspended? When does it start? By the time you get an attorney, she may be back in school anyway.
Hi, R.:
Let her suffer the consequences and learn from it.
Are you going to try to control life for her.
This will probably be the best education she will
have in her life. She will learn self-restraint.
We learn self-restraint when we attend Sunday School
and Church growing up.
What I suggest to you is this:
Forget the hearing. Instead,
Sit down with your daughter and ask her these questions.
Stick completely to this script.
Ask her:
1. What happened?
2. What were you thinking of at the time?
3. What have you thought about since?
4. Who has been affected by what you have done? In what way?
5. What do you think you need to do to make things right?
After she answers these questions then you tell her your responses to these questions.
Tell her:
1. What you thought when you realized what had happed.
2. What impact this incident has had on you and others.
3. What has been the hardest thing for you?
4. What you think needs to happen to make things right?
Good luck.
D.
Updated
Hi, R.:
Let her suffer the consequences and learn from it.
Are you going to try to control life for her.
This will probably be the best education she will
have in her life. She will learn self-restraint.
We learn self-restraint when we attend Sunday School
and Church growing up.
What I suggest to you is this:
Forget the hearing. Instead,
Sit down with your daughter and ask her these questions.
Stick completely to this script.
Ask her:
1. What happened?
2. What were you thinking of at the time?
3. What have you thought about since?
4. Who has been affected by what you have done? In what way?
5. What do you think you need to do to make things right?
After she answers these questions then you tell her your responses to these questions.
Tell her:
1. What you thought when you realized what had happed.
2. What impact this incident has had on you and others.
3. What has been the hardest thing for you?
4. What you think needs to happen to make things right?
Good luck.
D.
IMHO, if you want to argue for a lower tier offense, I think you should have an attorney who is experienced in making such arguments. Your attorney friends will probably not be able to drop what they have going to attend a hearing in the next day or two. Attorneys are usually very busy. Also, you will want an attorney who is experienced in your state's Education Code - most attorneys are not.
As far as her permanent record, I believe that because the suspension has already taken affect, it's on her record. If you get is withdrawn, I believe the fact of the suspension and the withdrawal will both show on her record.
Whether you should get a lawyer would in my opinion depend on what she did. Because you will not say what that is, it makes it difficult to answer your question and it raises red flags to me. Err on the side of caution and consult one.
Yes, and this is the person I would call:
R. Ficker
8002 Wisconsin Avenue
Bethesda, MD 20814
###-###-####
R., go ahead and get the lawyer. But a heads-up. A friend of mine did that with her son and once the school knew a lawyer was involved, they clammed up and wouldn't talk to her anymore. If you tell the principal you might get a lawyer, that will most likely happen to you too. Get everything you need from him up front.
My first question is, did she do what she is accused of doing? Do you have absolutely ALL the facts. If she did, than she needs to accept the punishment. I also think that if you go into the hearing with the attitude of "talk to my attorney not me" it will seriously put the school on the defensive. Don't get me wrong, if needed I will involve an atty in school related matters and have threatened so in the past but it will only be after I have tried every means in my power to legitimately try and work it out with them and let them know that I really want to work with them. Every action I take is a learning moment for my children and I don't want to give them the wrong idea of things.
Do you know ALL the details of what happened and EVERYONE involved and what happened to everyone? I'm not saying your daughter is a bad kid just sometimes a lot of people adults included can spin a matter and still be telling the truth to have them look as good as possible. Before you go to the school, definitely have ALL the facts about what happened, and if possible get the accounts of the other individuals involved. Did the others involved have the same punishment? I'm one of these people that think that don't think that special treatment is due one specific person just because. There have to be published rules especially in dealing with a large group of people and they have to be adhered to in order to keep order.
But to be honest without knowing all the details it's really hard to give advice. Like if my kid was being bullied and he fought back (and this has happened) and he got in trouble not the bully. In a circumstance like that I'd let them know that I'd already contacted an attorney if they wouldn't review the individual matter and take the indivudual into consideration. But since you won't share what she did it's hard to make a recommendation. Sometimes it would be helpful but most times it's not helpful going in there lawyered up.
But let me also add that one person's idea of a "really bad" offense isn't always another. That's what is a gray area. In certain circumstances fighting isn't bad in my book. But to you thats an egregious offense. If it's published in black and white than maybe it just needs to be a learning tool for her to keep her in line. Again, not saying shes a bad kid just saying everyone needs to learn and accept punishments sometimes.
Absolutely get an Attorney. My friend is an Attorney and has represented several Parents when it involves school, more for IEP but nonetheless have an Attorney present!!!!
I hope your daughter is remorseful and apologetic. And no matter what, I would have her write an apology letter addressed to ALL involved.
Keep us posted on the outcome
What did she do? Why can't you tell us? Depending on how severe her actions were i may or may not get an attorney. If she cheated on an exam and is being suspended for 2-3 days then no i would not seek legal advice. Was she caught kissing a boy in the halls? Even if she was caught fighting or stealing, she broke the rules, surely at 16 years of age she should know better, however, kids do need reminding from time to time.
