Boisterous Girls?

I have a boy and girl.
I taught them to KNOW themselves, to know who they are, and to be themselves. And they are.
I did not teach them to be a certain way just because of their gender.
They just are, as they are.
With their own personalities.

Very interesting. I don't have girls but I was one!

It continues to puzzle me how women who claim to be supportive of women in whatever capacity they choose in life, persist to deagrate women who have different personalities or make different choices than they would.
And then call them names and laugh as men call women names (uptight ?), mousy, reserved??

Then proceed to place value on females who have qualities that make them more like boys?? Does that mean males are STILL more valuable?

Are you still not comfortable with being around women who have more quiet personalities? Are you overcompensating by putting women down that, God forbid, LIKE to express theirselves in ways other than boisterous?

As women, we can raise kids, paint, cook, garden, and write beautiful poetry still without being anything other than equal with men in intelligence and value to society. I don't have to play soccer with the boys to support your right to do it. Try stretching your value of women to include all of us.

Maybe this other little girl is maturing, growing up, and your daughter is not.
Calling someone else mousy and uptight, yet excusing your own, and your daughter's behavior as punk, and boisterous, somehow cooler and more free? That is rich.
And then trying to blame it on some outdated social structure that NO modern mother subscribes to anymore?
Sorry, but no.
The simple truth is that most people, male or female, don't enjoy being around people who are loud and bossy, and if your daughter is "insisting" that you, her mother, do ANYTHING, then she sounds very bossy to me, and I wouldn't be surprised that other kids don't want to play with her. Why would she even go to this party anyway, when it's clear the girls aren't even friends anymore?
And this isn't a boy vs.girl thing at all. Obnoxious, ill mannered boys are just as annoying as obnoxious, ill mannered girls.

Hmmm, the way your post is written suggests you believe one must completely forgo reverence for exuberance. And I disagree. For example, I enjoy drinking and dancing as well, however I also enjoy going to church. It's a question of balance.

I have two boys and a girl. I did not allow the boys to completely run amuck while requiring the girl to be dainty and delicate and demure.

However I DID instill in all of them respect for the people around them.

It occurs to me your daughter's first friend is learning social cues a little earlier than your own daughter.

It IS possible to produce a girl who has passion and enthusiasm for life, and quality social skills at the same time.

After all, chaos among chaos is just chaos. Chaos among order is what changes the world.

:)

I have a 5 year old daughter and I have never taught her to sit cross-legged, or not speak unless spoken to, or otherwise behave "like a lady."

That being said, I think there is a time and a place for everything, that there is a difference between "boisterous" and "obnoxious", and both boys AND girls should be taught to use indoor voices when appropriate, to not interrupt, and to mind their manners. Personally, I don't like it when boys are acting up all over the place and people excuse it because, well, "that's just how boys are" and don't bother teaching them any different. I expect my daughter to behave herself in public and at other peoples' homes because I believe she will be more successful in the future if she knows proper social skills. I do not expect this of her just because she is a girl - if I had a son, I would expect it of him too. She has plenty of other opportunities to be a crazy nut and blow off steam and just be a kid. And she gets along well with both boys and girls, and has many friends of all personality types. But she knows when it's okay to be wild, and when she needs to reign it in.

ETA: I think also that Terri S. just nailed it on the head - I don't see the girl going through some massive personality switch so much as maybe maturing and growing up a little (you didn't mention their actual ages). Enjoying going to church doesn't make one uptight and enjoying getting drunk is not necessarily "cool".

I think there's a time and a place for everything. A time to cut loose and let it all hang out and a time to respect the sensitivities of others.

There is a difference between boisterous (at home, at the park, running around) and being rude (at a restaurant, running around). I think teaching our children appropriate behavior for different settings is important for many reasons, one of which being that it does smooth their way through the world, boys and girls alike. We want to teach our children of either gender how to behave so that they have positive interactions in the world. Your daughter and her friend may not spend a lot of time learning to sit quietly, but it's not like it's not an important skill. Learning to be quiet and listen is very important because it will affect our future relationships and opportunities. My son (kindergartener) has to learn to sit quietly sometimes out of respect for the other children around him because THEY need to hear the teacher's instructions--and he does too. Or because we are at a restaurant and we must be considerate for others. (I abhor the 'run around and do as you damn well please' restaurants which have become popular in my neck of the woods as of late.) Or because his father and I are having a conversation and this is not the time to interrupt.

Learning about our world is a balance of inquisitiveness and interaction and some deference/understanding of cultural norms. When I was a nanny to young girls, I expected the same manners and behavior from them as I expected from the boys I cared for, no more. To talk in turn, to be relatively polite, to refrain from hurting each other. I also ran the girls just as hard as the boys and no, I didn't teach them to cross their legs-- but I might have suggested to wear shorts under their skirts and dresses so everyone's bum was covered, just like a boy.

We can suck the marrow out of life and also learn to be facile socially; as your unschooler gets older, she'll want to know how to be respectful and show deference to those she wants to learn from. I'm sure you will help her with that. I'm not sure what's up with the negative review of the old friend and her family; some people are more staid and have more of a sense of propriety. I'm not sure it's a bad thing, just different from what you value for yourself and your family.

And yes, move your daughter along to friends who have more similar temperaments. That's fine. Just remember that you want to teach her to look past appearances as she grows up and to get to know people for who they really are. My husband calls me 'Ms Pro-priet-tay' jokingly (sort of, I do insist on good manners at the table!)and knows that while I am quiet in a crowd, I can have a lot of fun and cut loose with close friends. It just depends on if you get to know me or not!

(I should add that I think the biggest double-standard comes in the teen years.... current events and attitudes can attest to that. Girls are saddled with a lot of responsibilities which some assume 'aren't the boy's problem', especially when it comes to sexual activity. )

I don't have a girl, but my boys are both very boisterous. They also have been taught to sit quietly when it is appropriate. There is nothing wrong with being boisterous, for girls or boys, but all children do need to learn that there is a time and place for everything, and that it is important to read the social cues of others. Of course, it is OK to decline the birthday invite if she is that uncomfortable and no longer enjoys this friends company.

Well, I don't think anyone should be friends with someone they're not comfy with, or can't be themselves around. I think everyone should be free to be themselves, but know when to put on their "polite" face.

Personally, I think you're majorly generalizing with your extremes. DD's friends are all different types. DD is somewhere in between - she's very social, friendly, but likes to chill out at home reading and doing arts & crafts, as well.

I am all for being "boisterous", but a lot of times that personality can come without boundaries or manners. I feel that sometimes it's used at carte blanche to be loud and obnoxious, because "that's who you are", or that it's used to excuse lazy parenting. DD has a neighbor friend that is exactly like this and it's like she's being raised by a caveman.

I also think the whole "active" boys thing is utter b.s. Most of the time it's just an excuse to not parent them. Most kids are active, but some of us actually take the time to teach our kids how to act.

As long as you know how to use manners when you need to, then don't be anyone but yourself.

My eight-year-old is a live wire.
My hubby and I received a note from het P.E. teacher in first grade. She was yelling at the second grade boys, "You got smoked by a first grader!" Besides seeing this as borderline bullying, I got a kick out of it. The first grade boys stopped racing her and she moved on to the bigger boys.
She is loud, very social and full of life. She plays hard and has more friends who are boys than girls.
She is an all A student and I don't plant reign her in any time soon.
I am outgoing and talkative so that isn't a big stretch from me.
The golfing, love of action movies and all things math and science, all daddy.
I say let your daughter be, the world needs more assertive, go getter kind of women.

I have to agree with those that say you are over-generalizing and focusing on the extremes. I love BeenThere's response. There's nothing WRONG with girls/women who are quiet, reserved, or "mousy." It just doesn't seem to "work" with you or your daughter.

Yes, we do socialize girls differently than boys. Yes, there is quite often still a double standard when it comes to men/women. However, I don't think it's to the extreme that you mention in your "So What Happened" (although I think the "don't interrupt" is a good lesson for both girls and boys). Exuberant does not have to equal "obnoxious." There's always room for good manners!

My daughters are quite shy around new people and will be very quiet and reserved. However, when they're around people they know, they are very exuberant and joyful and energetic. They get just as much enjoyment from running around outside chasing bubbles and screaming like banshees as they do from quietly completing an arts and crafts project indoors. It doesn't make one activity/attitude "better" than the other.

As long as your daughter is polite, there's nothing wrong with her being boisterous. You do admit she's socially immature. Being around others who are more mature (but different than her!) should help her with that.

Honestly no, I think girls are not only expected to, but encouraged to be more "rowdy" now.
For example, playing some kind of sport is the norm here, from a very young age. Even if a girl isn't that "sporty" she has certainly had some experience playing on a team, and asserting herself in some competitive way.
You can't be timid when you're running down the field with a lacrosse stick in your hand!
The girls who don't play sports at all usually excel in other ways, especially in school.
But if your daughter is like my two then she NEEDS a physical outlet. Both my girls loved playing sports, from first grade through high school. Soccer, swim team, gymnastics and volleyball. Not all at once obviously :-)
And I wouldn't describe ANY of my their friends as quiet, reserved or shy, no way. My daughters have very different personalities and very different types of friends, but these girls are ALL accomplished, outgoing girls in their OWN way. Absolutely no wallflowers.
I know you home school, and I think that's fine, but it really does limit your daughter's exposure to the wider world. If she was exposed to an entire classroom and school and wider community of girls she would probably find a lot more people to connect with. You must realize that her world is made up of a small, select and not very diverse group. Girls who come from very protective homes. Girls who's parents don't want them exposed to the "bad" stuff, i.e. outside influences.
I'm not saying to send her to school, I'm just saying, find a way for her to meet more girls, LIKE HER. Sports, Girl Scouts, YMCA, whatever.

If you are dreading the party and your daughter had no fun, why are you going? Do everyone a favor and politely decline.

My first (6yo girl) can sit quietly, but she tends toward the very loud and dramatic. And she always seems to need to make noise, be it with her mouth, hands, feet, whatever.

My second (girl) has never ever ever been able to sit still. Granted, she's only 3yo and may yet learn. Every time she's taken somewhere and all other kiddos are sitting in the parents/caretakers laps, she is trying to get up, walk away, pull away, bounce around, etc. It just is who she is. I'd look at all the other small children (both girls and boys) and wonder how ours could be soooooo different. And this is after trying (and trying and trying) to get her to sit and be still/quiet. Frankly, if I could change it I would. It's totally exhausting, and we still can't go out to restaurants because of it. But, she is also an extremely charming and curious child, so this characteristic may serve her very well in the future.

For your SWH, the "only speak when spoken to" mantra predates me, and I'm a 1960s child, so it's pretty darn old. I don't think we still do this.

Yes, I do feel that we socialize girls differently. However,with each generation we have to adapt.
I encourage my son to hold doors open for people-but I encourage my girls to do that as well. If anyone (man or woman) walks into a door before us and lets it slam behind them-I point out how rude that was.
Our 9 year old girls is very boisterous. Her BFF is reserved and secretly (she doesnt think the parents notice) pretty bossy. I feel that they compliment each other. The BFF can live vicariously through our daughter, and our daughter has been encouraged to wake up early for showers instead of us reminding her when this needs to be done.

This seems like a great opportunity for your daughter to focus on the birthday girl. I would encourage her to do what she can to give the bday girl a special day even if that means being mellow for a few hours. I worry this boisterous behavior will eventually result in peers pulling away from her. I would encourage her to learn how to relate in different ways with different people. Dial it back with some friends and be more physical with others. Her energy is a great strength but part of maturing is learning to engage in different ways depending on the setting. Can she go for a run before the party to burn off some excess energy?

My daughter is this way as well and other than reminding her that we don't need to be yelling inside a library or while in class she's free to be herself. I don't subdue my daughter's boisterousness but we do live in a society where, unfortunately, things are in no way equal between the genders and until it catches up often boisterous little girls(or women)are often looked negatively upon. It is one area of life I don't agree with but for me it is not something I feel strongly enough about to get on my soapbox. My daughter is a tomboy of sorts and enjoys many things that are stereotypical boy/men things. She doesn't have any close girlfriends outside of class and she's not interested in what many her age are but there are a few girls whom are just as loud and crazy as she is.

If your daughter does not enjoy herself while at events for this little girl perhaps she should no longer put either of them in the situation. She should surround herself with people that do not mind how she is. Life's too short to worry about always conforming to societal and other's expectations of ourselves and our children as well.

I know I don't socialize my daughter that way. But I'm not that way. I'm more like you.
I will teach her social norms, and I will teach her to know how to be a "lady". However, I will not insist that be how she behaves in life.

She's got an older brother. So her approach to her world right now is more of a head first tackle. :) I love that about her. That was me, too. Still is.

I think we socialize our daughters in the way that we relate to. And while certain behaviors have proven to be inherent (my daughter loves to play with her "babies"...I have never given her a doll or steered her in that direction.), I think much of how girls develop is first - a product of their mothers, and second - a product of life circumstance.

I think your daughter's first friendship has fizzled.
People can grow apart and it happens all the time.
It might be the first time it's happened but it won't be the last.

If you said your daughter would go to the birthday party, then consider it the last hurrah and accept no more invitations in the future.
If you have not yet RSVP'd, then decline the invitation.