Sleep Aids or Tricks?? Need Something!

No tv in the room! It's just too distracting/overstimulating.
Also, 7:30 might be too early for bed for a 4 year old if there's a nap involved. My 4 yo really doesn't need a nap anymore, but they make her take one in Pre-K. We also struggle some nights with her getting to sleep. Since you have the option, try cutting that nap out and see if bedtime goes a little smoother for you.

My daughter has a severe sleep disorder and we've been to multiple sleep studies, sleep specialists, etc. Although her problem is medical and neurological, some of the things we've been taught apply to any sleep situation.

1. The family has to agree. One parent can't have the sleep situation one way, and the other parent another way. Same for babysitters. Your children will be in school before too long, and sleep is essential. If your husband must have the tv to sleep, that's his business, but he will need to keep that private. He'll need to demonstrate to the children that he's onboard with a new way to sleep. After they go to bed, he can turn on the tv quietly when he goes to bed, if that's the way it has to be. Make a sleep chart with a plan, times, rules, etc., and discuss it as a family. Even the little one can get involved by putting a sticker on the chart (a moon or stars).

2. The sleep specialists call it "sleep hygiene". Sleep hygiene consists of structure (a routine, like you've been doing), no electronic screens (the light that comes from them is disruptive to the brain function necessary for sleep, and it's very scientific but it's a particular light wave or something like that - I can't recall the exact scientific name for the way they measure the light), no snacks prior to sleep (digestion requires the body and brain to function actively). The bedroom should be set up for sleep, not for entertainment. If you must use their room for a playroom too, make sure that the bed/sleeping area is separated from the toys. There should not be a tv or computer in the room at all. Get a simple room divider, or curtain that can be drawn across the play area of the room, so that the beds are clearly for rest, for sleep, for quiet. If they're going to have playtime in their room, make sure it's not on the beds. Get a rug and try to separate the play area from the sleeping area. If you have a family room or play room, then make the bedroom a sleep room only. And it's important that all electronics (iPads, tvs, computers) get shut off at least one hour prior to preparing to bed to allow the brain to stop the receptors that process that kind of input and begin the process of releasing the sleep hormones.

3. White noise is effective. Pink noise is even better. White noise is a sound wave that makes a kind of whooshing sound, and it blocks out outside noises. Nearly every electronics place (Sharper Image, Brookstone, Bed Bath and Beyond) all sell white noise machines. Pink noise operates at a lower frequency and is more difficult to obtain - there are some online sites. A white noise machine is just a simple thing that looks like an alarm clock, and you can set the better ones to decrease and shut off after 15 minutes or 1 hour, or they can go all night. Check the features before purchasing one.

4. Don't interact with your children after bedtime (after the routine of teeth brushing, story, prayers, whatever). Don't sing after the story time, don't let them listen to your voice, don't chat, don't scold. Simply ignore. Make sure that during the bedtime routine they get plenty of quiet attention and eye contact, and then say goodnight. If they get out of bed, return them without a word, without expressing frustration. No questions, no answers. No anger, no reaction.

But none of this will happen unless you and your husband have a plan, and stick to it.

You need to stop the TV at night, period. No TV in the room, at all. No stimulation, at all. It's a terrible habit and one that will lead to disruptive sleep until you stop it. And "just the TV's light" IS stimulating. It's literally telling their brains to not turn off, not relax, and not sleep.

Yes, it will be hard. Yes, they will probably cry. Maybe the transition is something you can do over a long weekend or a vacation (I know, just how you want to spend your time off, right?). But you have to do it.

I haven't read the other responses, so apologies if I'm repeating... but

FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY, GET THE TV OUT OF YOUR CHILDREN'S BEDROOM!!!! Break it if you have to. But get it out of there. And sit down and talk to your husband about the harm that he is doing by turning a movie on for them at night. Every study ever done shows that the blue light emitted from a TV stimulates small children. It resets their melatonin levels so they physically can't fall asleep. So no wonder your children are up until 8:30 and 10. That's just not fair to them. You and your husband (because you're in this together, no matter who puts them to bed) are setting your children up for failure, each and every night. They're not learning to self soothe. They're not learning a healthy going to bed routine.

I'm sure the transition to no TV won't be an easy one, but if you physically remove the television, then they can't make dad cave in. He's choosing the easy way out and everyone else suffers. I would be so mad in your shoes. It's like saying you let your child drink kool aid at every meal and eat nothing but McDonalds... because it's easier and you don't have to fight them.

Hi J., every family dynamic is different, but here's what I did:

My boys, two years apart, also shared a room until they were 9 and 11. When the third came about, and was a girl, that's just the way it had to be.

The younger was an excellent sleeper, fell asleep early, stayed asleep, from birth, never any sleep issues.

The elder was (and still is) nocturnal, apparently.

The routine every night for both was similar, and I do believe it's important to have a routine and stick with it.

Bath, snack, story and/or fave TV show. Teeth brushed, last potty chance. Then, the younger got put to bed at least a half hour before the elder.

So by the time the elder (non sleeper) got put to bed, the younger was out cold.

Elder was allowed to choose 2 books from the downstairs bookcase to read in bed.

Elder had a little flash light, picked it out himself. He WAS allowed to read his books quietly, no time limit. But he was not allowed to make noise, get out of bed, leave the room, etc. If he did, he would lose his reading rights.However, he never seemed to be overtired, had no behavioral issues, etc that suggested he wasn't getting enough sleep.

They also had a little fan, for white noise, and a night light. Both brought a drink to put on their night stands.

Dunno why, but it worked. If I had to guess, I think the single most important factor is to do it the same way every single night. No slacking.

And no TV, in any bedroom. Ever.

And no falling asleep in the family room and being carried to bed.

:)

Wow - you've got a huge problem and some really ingrained habits. The biggest problem is your husband who has taught them that a TV is the way to go to sleep. Now they are really unable to calm down and to self-soothe. I'm glad you know that a 4 year old has to be asleep before 10 PM and I think you and your husband need to educate yourselves about the long term negative health effects for kids who are sleep-deprived. My concerns include them being in school and unable to learn/focus, and their future ability to do homework with a TV in their room. That is an educational and health nightmare. A CD of lullabies is one thing - but the visual stimulation of a TV and the onslaught of sounds is not conducive to good sleep.

Standing over a child for an hour is not helpful. I know you feel desperate but you just can't do that. By 4, a lot of kids give up naps so maybe she needs to do that in order to sleep at night.

Kids have to learn to calm down, and for many it's a learned skill. That means that you may need to take a long weekend (Columbus Day is coming up - that might work), and just shift entirely to a new routine, with no exceptions. Everyone will be exhausted and cranky but don't give up. Take the TV out of the bedroom. You can't explain it to a 2 year old but she'll be easier to retrain. You can't really explain it too well to the 4 year old either. But there has to be NO getting up at night (no walking around, no getting water, no questions, etc.). You can leave a light on in the bathroom for the 4 year old but if that's too tempting, then put the kiddie potty in her room along with a set of wipes, and leave it at that.

Everyone wakes up at night but most of us can put ourselves back to sleep. Your kids can get to sleep, and they can't put themselves back to sleep in the middle of the night.

You have to have some rules about coming out of the room - maybe it's not until "it's light out" or not until a special kids' clock says a certain time. If you have a nightlight on a timer or a sun-sensor, then they don't come out of bed until that light goes off. (Or there are light-up clocks for kids - don't come out until it lights up.)

There are no real tricks, I'm afraid. You can put a white noise machine in to drown out the outside sounds (use an allergy air filter, a fan pointed away from them, anything) but it has to be a constant sound, not dialog or music or sound effects from a movie.

I agree with you that drugging the kids is not the answer. First of all, most of these products are not regulated and you don't know what's in them. More important, the kids do not have sleep disorders or stress - they have really bad habits. We all do stuff to achieve the short term goal, and later we wish we hadn't. My kid was a terrible sleeper and at 6 months was still up 2 times per night. But the pediatrician put her foot down and said we all needed sleep. She advised the 3 day weekend thing and it worked great. It was 3 days/nights of hell followed by blissful nights. You go in and comfort the child but no hugging, no picking up, no talking beyond "It's time for sleep. Night night. See you tomorrow." You can rub their heads for 15 seconds while you say the words, but then you leave. You do not go in for 15 minutes no matter what. Then you go in and repeat, then you leave for 20 or 25 minutes. Same thing repeated as much as possible with longer and longer intervals. When they figure out there is no water, no singing, no TV, no hugging, no drinks, no nothing, they eventually collapse and go to sleep. If they wake up in 4 hours, you do the same thing again. It's awful but otherwise you will be dealing with severe problems, sleep deprivation and behavioral issues for the next 15 years.

I'm not sure I'd introduce a new calming item if you think it will turn into an activity. Instead, I'd use something they already have that is their favorite comfort item - blankie, stuffed animal, etc. They pick one thing, and that's it.

Good luck! Don't give up!

TV light really messes with people's circadian rhythms, especially kiddos. And it definitely sounds like the blue light from the TV is wrecking their sleep patterns when you say melatonin 'works' to help them sleep.

This isn't 'kooky science' or anything, the American Association of Pediatrics says specifically to not have TVs in a kid's bedroom and no TV viewing within 2 hours before bedtime.

Your DH is an adult and in charge of himself, but the kids need to let that habit go for their health.

You and your husband need to agree on the no TV. Not a good habit for little ones. Try putting them to bed a bit later.

I agree with B - until you get rid of that tv, you are fighting a losing battle.

You are fighting a losing battle until your husband gets onboard with accepting that their sleeping habits are a problem and they need to change.
You have to change his mind/attitude first.
If he sleeps with the tv - fine - but he shouldn't be training the kids for the same thing.
TV in the bedroom is nothing but trouble.
Consider breaking the one in the kids room (dunk it in water and let it dry out) and not replacing it.
All the other things you want to try are not going to have the desired effect until you deal with that tv.

We used the Ferber method. In their case, the sleep association you want to remove is the TV i take it?

Tell them that you are concerned about the amount of sleep they are getting. They need sleep to help them grow, and pay attention and be strong. You will be doing things a little differently for a while, so as to make sure that they get enough sleep.

Day 1. put them in bed at 10:30 pm. If they get up, or call to you, or cry, go in and soothe at increasing intervals, 1, 3, 5, 10, 15 & 20. When you soothe, it should be little more than a stroke, telling them that it's time fore bed, and that you love them, then you leave. Don't let them sleep in or make up for lost sleep with an afternoon nap.
Day 2. Put them in bed at 10:30pm. This time you soothe at longer intervals, wait 3, 5, 10, 15, 20, 35 minutes. Same routine.
Day 3. Put them in bed at 10:30pm, soothe at longer intervals, wait 5, 10, 15, 20, 35, intervals, etc.

Keep the late bedtime, and the increased intervals until your kids are consistently and quickly going to bed easily without the tv at 10:30. Once they've mastered sleeping at 10:30 without the tv, move their bedtime towards 8pm, by making it 15 minutes earlier every 3-4 days.

Best,
F. B.

BTW- those calm down bottles are awesome. I will try some this weekend.

You said you're not home at night. Stop fighting dad's sleep system. It works for him. You're trying to come in and "fix" this. If he's putting them to be most nights you need to conform to their routine.

All this is going to do is confuse the kids. They go to bed WAAAAYY too early too. Good grief, do you guys ever do anything together? Eat dinner and it's bedtime?

I fall asleep with the TV sometimes too and I sleep harder and longer when it's on. There is research to sustain every point of view if you look hard enough. We study this in college. When you want to find a result you can find it somewhere.

So if he's going to put the kids to bed most of the time he is the one that has to make changes, not you. He's the authority figure at bedtime. Not you.

If he's sitting there with them watching TV and they all fall asleep together then it's working for them.

I have 3 grand kids that fall asleep with the TV. The others go with our without. The TV doesn't make any difference.

I just discovered what some of the mamas are saying to be true: the small blue tv or computer light disturbs melatonin. I now sleep with ear plugs (yes, I can still hear the alarm in the morning) and eye pads.

I had terrible sleep patterns in 2008. I would literally lie awake and not fall asleep until about 30 minutes before the alarm went off. My eyes felt like they had sand in them in the morning. It was horrible. I was miserable.