Should I Say Something? - South Hamilton,MA

just my opinion here, but to me that is like a 1 on the 1-10 scale of bad things to say. i think you're very much overreacting. and butting in. and being unkind towards that para. you have zero idea of what came before that. maybe that was the nicest thing she could think of to say at that point. i say 100% stay out of it.

i also see zero problem with a child being told that how they are acting affects others. honestly i think more children should be made to feel guilty for acting like little jerks. IF that is what was happening.

I would not bring it up to the principle.

Because I do not think that the Para did anything wrong. If it is okay to tell a child that makes me happy when a good behavior is presented, why would it be wrong to say it makes me sad when a bad/inapprorpriate behavior is pressented?

I have often told my son that his choices/ behaviors etc.. make me sad when he makes a bad decision. And I tell him how very proud I am when he makes a good decision. I think it was done as a learning tool.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. The people providing wrap around services for children in schools are VERY well trained, from my experience. Nothing that woman did or said raises any flags for me. It's not about her, it's about teaching empathy, like the others said.

I think you are so out in left field on this one!!! I know your intentions are right, but honestly...

...to my two year old daughter, when she misbehaves, I say, "It makes me sad when you act like this." And that is the TRUTH. Why is it wrong to call people on their behavior? Because the truth of the matter is, the way people act DOES affect the feelings of others, and children have to learn that.

I don't find what she said, in ANY way, to be unprofessional or wrong. I don't think it had ANYTHING to do with feeling good about herself, OR making the child feel bad about himself, but rather to take ownership of his behavior because yes, things we do affect other people.

And honestly, sadness is hardly an internal emotion unless you are clinically depressed for NO reason, and I think that's rare. Usually, when we are sad, there is an outside source of our sadness.

Also, just want you to know I am not attacking you or trying to be mean or anything...just hopefully explaining another view on it. Again, I think you have a kind heart and just took it way out of context.\

(And honestly...I think you "defensively" added at the end of your SWH a LIE. I highly doubt that the teacher thought it was so serious or that "it should not be happening in our school"...if she said those things, she was just trying to placate and get rid of you. I read your entire SWH, and you absolutely have the wrong take on this. I am still really trying to be kind about it, but I honestly think you got defensive and fibbed there. PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE FEELINGS OF OTHERS. Okay...it's like this....no one is responsible to make me happy...I have to choose to find joy in life...but people ARE responsible when I am sad because they have ACTED in ways to make me so. See the difference? Oh, and BTW...I have Asperger's and have had to have a fair bit of empathy training myself. I really, actually don't empathize or sympathize with much of anything, but I know I am "supposed" to, have been taught what proper emotions are for a lot of social situations, and know how to fake my way through it in a more or less sincere way because I WANT to empathize, I am just not able most times to do so. It is IMPORTANT for children on the autism spectrum to learn how to deal with emotional situations, or they end up being anti-social and offensive.)

Wow, just wow. You caught a snippet. What if this child has some sort of behavior problem, or any number of disorders? Empathy is likely a problem for this child. Frankly, there is nothing wrong with teaching that to ANY child.

Your incredible judgements are something I can't wrap my head around. From those seconds, you assume that not only is she a terrible aide or teacher, but she has no knowledge or training. My goodness, you have NO idea who the kid is, or who she is.

NO, you shouldn't say anything. You didn't hear anything worthy of a report. She did nothing wrong, and you are jumping to very quick conclusions and judgements. I'd like to send YOU to the principle. When I was in school, principals didn't like busybodies.

No, don't bring it up to the principal. Trust that the para was handling the situation appropriately. It could very well have been handled per the child's private IEP, which the principal would not be allowed to comment on.

Making a child responsible for their own actions and words and how they affect other people is not wrong. I realize that makes you uncomfortable, and maybe we'll have to agree to disagree, but I do believe that you're misreading the intent. It's not about making a child behave better to make yourself, an adult, feel better. It's part of teaching social responsibility. Some children need this in a much less subtle way than other children like my middle daughter (who has Autism).

I find nothing unprofessional about what the para said to the child. She was speaking appropriately on all levels. And as a paraprofessional she would have to have a certification in order to have that job. A paraprofessional is an aide/assistant to the school's therapists. It's an extremely important job, and NOT one that someone unskilled and untrained and without knowledge about special needs can do.

I thank God every single day for my daughter's paraprofessionals. They're amazing.

You have no idea what transpired before that small bit you heard. For all you know she had been cussed out twenty ways from Tuesday, I think a child needs to understand that angry words hurt people's feelings.

Honestly I am having a bit a trouble wrapping my brain around where you are coming from. Anger makes people sad. Telling him that anger makes her sad is not saying you must change your behavior to make me feel better. It is trying to teach him empathy the only way to do that is for him to understand how people react to his anger. She was trying to teach him empathy so I have no idea how you came around to she wants him to make her feel better about herself.

Just so you know my son is Autism spectrum and has some huge anger issues that he has learned to control. When you have anger issues and lack of empathy it is not an easy fix.

So, I am saying keep the heck out of this because nothing you have said indicates the aide was being unprofessional.
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After reading your what happened, you just don't get it! There are children out there they cannot empathize! It is just how they are wired. The best you can do is teach them when you do this people feel that! At least with that they can logically figure out, I yelled a Jimmy, Jimmy is mad at me. Otherwise they are looking at Jimmy thinking he is mean, he is doing something wrong.

Part of my son's IEP from kindergarten until sixth grade was empathy training. It isn't teaching a child how to be empathetic as you would a normal child, it is teaching them cause and effect.

So sorry, you are dead wrong on this one! So far as the teacher goes, she has a crazy parent bitching about something that is none of her business. You didn't notice she told *YOU* to bring it up to the principal? She doesn't think you are right, she just doesn't want to deal with you.
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Oh, since I am typing I wanted to respond to the stupid comments I can't believe parents don't think kids should be taught that they aren't responsible for other people's feeling, what freaking planet are you from??! If your child makes fun of another child damn straight your child is responsible for that child's sadness!! What are you a bunch of adult bullies??!!

The only time your child is not responsible for another child's feelings is if who they are makes a child feel less about themselves. Like your child has the right answer and they don't. Sure if that makes Jimmy feel stupid it isn't your child's fault.

I find it scary that there are a fair few parents out there that can't tell the difference!

So, you don't know this kid, you don't know what his issue/issues is/are, you have no idea what actually took place... but you want to bring it up to her boss? No, I think that's pretty out of line, if you ask me.

For that matter, I don't see anything wrong with teaching a child empathy. I try to let my kids know that their words can hurt people. I try to encourage them to voice their emotions as well.

So... what exactly are you wanting to tell the principal?

This child may need help learning how his behavior affects those around him. If he is impulsive or angry or lacks empathy he NEEDS to be taught how his behavior makes others feel.
How else would you expect him to learn?
As a first grade aide I did this kind of thing all the time.
Johnny, the way you are talking to Sally makes her sad (look at her face, her tears, etc.)
Abby, it makes me sad when you say you don't like me, because I like you very much and I want to help you. Can you instead say, I don't like doing this work?
Billy, you are making these children angry when you refuse to play fair (again, point out how he is making the children feel, look at their facial expressions, etc.)
How is it sad or unprofessional to teach children that their actions and behavior has a profound impact on the people around them?
My "training" as an aide was minimal, but this was pretty basic stuff when it came to working with young children. We ALL did it, and the kids usually responded very well. They want to be good, and they want to feel accepted and liked by the people around them, it's human nature.
I'm sorry but if you went to the principal with this I imagine s/he would probably look at you like you were a little nuts.

She was letting him know the effect of his behavior. Children need to know that their actions have consequences. THis has nothing to do with how the adult feels about themselves. I urge you to not say anything and perhaps take an example from this method of teaching children how to behave.

Don't say anything.

At the end, what do you expect to happen? Have the principal reprimand the aid for sharing his/her feelings? That's silly.

And from what you wrote, the aid is just sharing his/her feeling not trying to punish the student with guilt. And if the student does feel guilty, then good! Students ought to feel guilty when they misbehave.

As an aside, I'm shocked at how many people responded with how we shouldn't teach children that they're not responsible for others' feelings. Particularly suprised considering how many people complain that responses to posts are "insensitive" or mean, without regard to other people's feelings. We all are responsible for the words that come out of our mouths and how those words impact others. Our challenge as parents is to teach our children between rational and irrational feelings. Neither children, nor adults, can take responsibility for irrational feelings.

How do you know how much behavior management training the aids have? Regardless of whether they do or not, there is usually a specific plan in place that everyone is trained on and you have no idea from the passing interaction, what that particular child needs or what is right or wrong in terms of his support.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but it from what you've said you're making a lot of assumptions, none of which are any of your business.

if you don't express your emotions honestly, then how do you expect the child to learn "cause & effect" from his behavior?

all children, not just student's with aides, need to learn & accept the consequences of their actions. For the aide to say that his anger made her feel sad.....was an honest interaction between adult & child.

I applaud the aide's ability to reach out to this child. She could have just yelled at him. She could have disciplined him thru penalties. She could have ignored him, thereby creating neglect for his emotional needs. Instead she reached out to him.

It concerns me that you are taking this so....adversely.

Heck I tell my son that all the time so does his teaher and the other teacher that helps him one on one. Unless you know the whole story of what was going on not just some muffled noises I'd stay out of others business...because really it's none of your business

I don't think you should say anything. You have no idea what this child's issue is nor do you seem completely sure of what you heard or the context in which it was said.

I don't think it was and aide's intent to make him responsible for her feelings. You don't ever say to your children that something they did upset you? Do you not think that they realize when you are angry that THEY are the ones who made you angry?

Moms have been candid on this site about yelling at their children when they were extremely frustrated. Do you not think the child realizes that it was his/her actions that caused that reaction in you? And you think that's wrong? That a child learns that their behavior impacts other people? No wonder kids are self-centered and don't know how to empathize!

No, you don't say anything. You don't know what issue there is when it comes to this kid.

I'm not sure why people feel that children should not be made aware of their actions. If they do something that hurts someone, makes them sad, upsets them, they absolutely should be told.

For example, my oldest (now 21) has some severe learning disabilities. One issue is that he isn't always aware of whats 'right', he also isn't always aware of how his actions effect others. It doesn't come from a bad place, he just doesn't get 'it', he doesn't pick up the cue's that others might.

Recently during a doctors appointment (also became bi-polar at 17) they did a series of questions. One was "if you're in a theater and you see smoke, what would you do?" common sense says to call for help. His answer "get up and leave" when prodded with "would you tell someone" he answered "no".

So while it may have made you sad, there may have been a reason as to why the aid chose the wording that they did. Wording that in my opinion, really wasn't an issue to begin with.

You know what? There are lots of kids with a wide variety of challenges attending school with an aide everyday.
You heard 2 sentences out of this particular kids day, right?
In our school, the same aide works with the same child, often year after year. They usually keep in pretty close contact with the parents, too.
Who knows what motivated this child?
I think to judge the aides training or knowledge after hearing a 5 second conversation is a bit.....unprofessional?

do you know what was wrong with the child? i think you are jumping the gun....sometimes with a special needs child they understand the difference between happy and sad. would you rather the aide say i'm tired of you making me mad when you do this!! i don't think the aide was really actually sad about the behavior!!

obviously something pushed a button for you personally. The aide may have not said the perfect thing, but it wasn't that bad. Stay out of it.

Without having read the answers of others:

I think part of helping children grow into being functioning citizens is to teach empathy. You do not know what happened previous to what you witnessed--you saw an aide making a statement without any context. This child may have done something violent, he may have trashed their workspace, he may have run off and called her names. He may have interrupted the entire classroom or hurt another child. You don't know.

People who work with children are entitled to have feelings and, when appropriate, to express them as this person did. Generally, yes, we don't want to 'put' our emotions on children and make them responsible for our happiness. But there's a big difference between "tell mommy you love her, so I won't be sad" sort of manipulation and stating feelings/asking the question "Do you want to make me sad?" (and perhaps, within their relationship, that was a valid question to ask. Was he mad at the aide to the point that he did want to hurt their feelings? This could be part of a more productive conversation to get to the root of *why* the child acted the way they did.)

That said, we ARE allowed to express displeasure when behavior is way out of the norm. This child may need to work on their social interactions with others and may even need to *be made aware* of the effects their actions have on their relationships with caregivers, aides and teachers. Some parents refuse to give their children guidelines and are overly permissive (both typical and atypical kids are sometimes subjected to that sort of parenting) and then the staff who works with the child has much to teach them.

I think there was more going on in that moment than what you know about and you are picking up on something which did not feel good for you. But what happens if you report this, based on ONE small moment? What if the aide loses their job and this child has more transitioning to do to get used to another aide? I'll say this nicely: I've worked with young children for a long time and some children are just plain difficult. Some kids come with a lot of baggage, and no matter how you try, no matter how many professional attempts, some kids are tough to have positive interactions with, period. I have been hit, screamed at, had play areas destroyed, had children defecate on things that were not toilets... people with years of professional training and a history of working with high-needs kids will still be offended by these things.

I would suggest that if you see something truly untoward (berating/threatening/excessive punishment or inappropriate physical guidance), then do report it. Otherwise, I'd let this go.

I wouldn't say anything. Im sure that the aide knows what can calm him down and if he is an empathetic person maybe that is what he needs. Im sure the aide was doing it for the child and not him/herself. I've threatened my kids to stop acting up or I would be grumpy for the rest of the night is that much different?

I have used that wording with my children when they were argumentative, in order to get them to change their mood or take back their hurtful words. Letting kids realize that words hurt is a good thing.

What was the aide trying to get the child to do? I might mention it to the principal or another teacher in order to find out the backstory first.

I wouldn't b/c like you said, you didn't hear everything and you do not know the whole situation.

I understand what you are saying about how it was wrong for the aide to make the child feel guilty about his feelings....BUT....some kids need to be taught that their actions/attitudes effect others, maybe that was happening there? Maybe this child has no empathy and it working on it? He does have an aide for a reason and we don't know what this child's issues are. I don't know and you don't know, so I do not think it is your place to say something that has the potential to get someone in trouble.

Just my .02 cents.

You might be unaware that in many situations, including counseling and therapy, people are often counseled to address problems with another person in terms like this: "When you do/say X, I feel...."

If it's good enough for counseling, it is likely a part of what that aide has been trained to say as she works with kids. It is not about making the child responsible for her feelings. It is about helping the child realize that his actions affect others. There's a difference-- do you see it?

Nope. You should absolutely not say anything. Ditto to almost all the posters before me.

But kudos to you for taking an interest. In this particular case, your attention is not necessary, but NEXT time you see or hear something, it might be valid. And we need more people who care enough to step in. Just not in this particular case.

I'm not really sure what YOUR qualifications are to be making a statement like that.

I'm not really sure what you mean by "expect a child to change their behavior just so you can feel good about yourself..."

... When your child misbehaves, doesn't it make you feel bad, or sad that you haven't taught them well enough, or, conversely, when your child does something very nice, or you see your child reaching out to another child to help or comfort them, doesn't that make you feel good? Why wouldn't you want your child to know how their behavior affects your feelings?

The aide is trying to show how the child's behavior affects the people around them.

I work as a para with low functioning students in middle school... and sometimes we have to put things into very simple terms with them for them to understand how their behavior affects other people.

We do get training... but sometimes we just have to rely on gut instinct on how to work with these students. And... as you've pointed out, we aren't fully trained psychologists or psychiatrists....we are just very caring people that want to help that student be the best they can be.

Maybe the last part of the sentence was wrong.. "Do you want to make me sad?" But is see nothing wrong with the first part, where the para is telling the child that their behavior makes them sad.

ETA: I just had my hubby read your post.... his question is to you.... "What do you suggest we say to the child in an attempt to correct their behavior? How would you suggest we correct their behavior?"

This seems to be a matter of your opinion, which you seem very sure of, but it's still just your opinion. I expected you to say the para belittled the chi,d or was cruel. I certainly would not say anything and this seems to be none of your business given you don't know the child or full situation at all.

The child has an aide for a reason. He oviously has anger issues. She was trying to teach him his actions are causing her to feel sad. I see nothing wrong with this. Keep your mouth shut please and don't go to the principle over this and ruin the aides job.who is working her butt off with children with anger issues.

I think you should say something. If they don't do anything about it, thats on them. But at least you will know you have done all you can to rectify the situation. I don't like what they said and I feel it makes a kid responsible for how the adult feels-that is not ok. Say something! Let us know what happens.

I completely agree with Bug. Read her comment and reconsider the issue.

I read your question twice and still wondered what you were so upset about and what the "incident" was.

In what world is it wrong to teach any child that their behavior affects others feelings (adult or child)?

To answer your question, NO. No, you should NOT say something.

Seems like a total non-issue.... nothing seems even mildly inappropriate in that exchange ... perhaps the child is on the autism spectrum, feelings of others MUST be explained very clearly and bluntly in an effort to teach empathy.

While I don't agree with this method (and many people wouldn't agree with mine) I have actually heard lots of advice saying to tell kids they are making them feel sad etc. when they throw tantrums or act mean or whatever. While you think it's "too mean" and people shouldn't be wanting to make themselves feel better by modifying behavior, etc., I actually think it's also ineffective (and too lenient) to try to pull sympathy from a child rather than discipline him (unless it's for a legitimate concern where the child needs gentle guidance, not discipline). BUT, if he's under a professional's care, that professional probably can't and wouldn't discipline and is working under those "talk about feelings" guidelines. If I overheard that exchange I'd be thinking, "Oh, yeah, he'll shape right up now" in a "how completely wimpy" way. Maybe the child has a medical disorder and can't be treated firmly for whatever reason. And expecting kids to act right is for their own good, not just to make their caretakers feel good about themselves. Kids aren't happier when they're allowed to go off the rails.

I heard a person who was obviously some kind of professional with a defiant angry kid (who didn't appear to be mentally challenged but one never knows) and a mom in a McDonald's play yard. She was talking to the angry boy about how he was making people feel (EYEROLL the kid SO did not care and seemed to be completely embarrassed).

You sound like you have professional knowledge about behavior management, and an idea of what the aid should do instead, so you might want to intervene. To me, the only thing "less mean" than talking about "others' feelings" would be to ignore the behavior, and she's probably not paid to do that. If you think she should have been using some other training method, like, "OK, friend, now we're going to run laps since you can't be respectful" or something, you should suggest it or inquire, but people against consequences would be offended by that. I'd be tempted to leave it alone if he's been assigned help. Or again, offer your knowledge in how the child should be handled, but do it in a way that doesn't offend the worker-she was just trying to use the empathy approach.

***And I'm not saying empathy isn't nice and great. My kids are very sensitive to the needs of others and we talk about that a lot in NON-DISCIPLINE moments. It's just that for certain kids (most) and at certain ages, they really only care what the ramifications are to THEM for their behavior. The talk about feelings is sort of white noise until they get older or are in a receptive mood. I've never told my kids they made me sad. Never. I may one day when our issues are more complex and mature, but for their "little kid" behavior, I tell them what's acceptable or not and what the rules are. I let their own feelings bloom from there. Guilt trips are not my thing.

No, you don't know the whole story, keep out of it. There is so much more to be "sad" about. People who do not know the whole story can cause serious problems for other parents that don't deserve extra stress in their lives. How would you feel is CPS came knocking on your door, when you think that you are a good parent? That would make you MORE then sad.

Yes - please DO say something! Aides do not get enough training or support in the best way to handle situations that arise. Telling the teacher and principal is the only way the need for more training will come to light. That is not an appropriate or professional way to have a meaningful dialogue with a student who is in distress for whatever reason.

What you do is go tell the guidance counselor. This same thing happened to a child who I knew very well. He had a lot of problems - couldn't look at the board and copy what he saw, couldn't write fast enough to keep up with anyone else in the class, had epilepsy and I don't know what else. He was so sad ALL THE TIME. He always looked like he was going to cry. In the library one day where I was shelving books, I listened to his aide do the same kind of thing you are talking about. I went straight to the guidance counselor who was very upset about it and that woman never worked with Tommy again.

PLEASE go talk to the counselor. She understands what this child needs in terms of emotional support. She will explain to the principal what needs to be done, or at least discuss it with the paraprofessional to make sure she learns what she should and should not say to him.

Dawn

No, I would not say anything. My son is in first grade and from preschool on up I have heard these sort of things from teachers and assistants.
Most schools now focus on the whole positive discipline thing and shy away from giving actual punishments for mis-behavior. I'm not sure if staff are trained to say these sorts of things or if it's just the last defense they have left against bad behavior - Either way, it seems to be the norm.

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Playing devil's advocate for a moment.... we don't know this boy's issues. Perhaps he is having a tough time understanding the impact of his behavior on others. If that is the case, I am not sure that the aide's comment is off the mark. In general, I agree we are all responsible for our own feelings yet it is important to help children realize that aggressive, hostile, hurtful behaviors can impact other's feelings. With that said, I still would trust your gut and tell the adminstration at the school that something about the encounter didn't sit well with you just to be sure.

I am always helping the kids to see how their behaviors and actions effect other people. If they don't learn that they tend to become sociopaths. Then they just don't care how they act. This child has an aid for a reason. He has a behavior plan most likely that is worded so that everyone that deals with this child is on the same page when they deal with him. That team most likely has his psychologist, a case manager, the special ed teacher, the principle, he teacher, his aid, his parents, any professionals that work with him in any manner too, and they are all part of the planning that gets this plan where it works with this child.

I think if you have a serious issue with it then it might be to your advantage to talk to someone about it so you can understand how teaching a child empathy and compassion is the right thing to do. Perhaps you'd be able to understand what this brief interaction was all about and feel better about what happened. If you work at the school then perhaps the confidentiality expectation could be that you might interact with this child and need to know his behavior plan so you could be up to date on how to talk to him if he acts out during reading time.

No, I wouldn't say anything.
I, actually, would assume that that is what they are teaching them these days (the teachers, not the kids).... Think about it. Read on this very board, how many parents' approach to discipline is to talk about it and say "that hurts my feelings". I'm dead serious.

I get what you are saying--no one can "make" you feel anything. I would just let this go, though.

You were right to make a mental note of it but nothing else.
If she were talking about creating empathy she was right.
If she were creating guilt over something not related to feelings it was wrong.
We will not know but you can keep a wary eye out.

I wouldn't say anything, but I agree with you that children should never be told they're responsible for an adult's (or anybody else's) feelings. I once over heard my husband say something similar to my daughter and I had to interject and correct him that only he is in control of his own feelings. He didn't get what I meant in that moment because he was agitated. Before our kids were born we promised to have a united front, but I wasn't going to let him put an emotional burden on my daughter falsely. I later apologized for breaking our united front rule, and he apologized for making a parent mistake.