Need Help with a Little Liar...

My son is very similar...lies constantly...but generally is a GREAT kid. I talk to him on why it is important to tell the truth. He still has a hard time understanding why it is bad to lie..."lying is bad because it is bad" I also make him go in his room (depending on what he lied about) and I tell him I don't want to be around liars. On instances like eating and brushing the teeth, I make him do the thing he lied about and then follow up with sending him to his room "because I don't want to be around a liar", so far it has slowed down the lying but it hasn't stopped...if it does I'll let you know, also if she stops based off of something, please let me know.

Once again, I need to address the issue of not putting soap in a child's mouth. This is a very bad idea. You tell them NOT to put it in their mouth, then you do? Talk about mixed messages.

I was traumatized by this - please do NOT do this.

We are having a similar issue as well with our 7-year old. I think it IS a psychological problem because whenever we "pull the string" on the lying we find out that her mom lied to her or forced her to lie about something. Once we find out what she first lied about (and she tells us) things seem to straighten out for a while.

We haven't gotten a full hold on it yet, but a few things that seem to work are:

1. Giving her an "out." Sometimes she lies because she doesn't want to get in trouble (forgetting that if she lies she gets in MORE trouble!) We'll say stuff like "did you brush your teeth? I'm going to check in 5 minutes." That gives her time to correct the problem instead of lying about it.

2. Every so often we do a "safe space." That's where she can tell us anything that she did that she wasn't supposed to and she won't get in trouble for it. We don't yell at her or punish her for telling us, but she does have to tell us how she can fix it for the future. So she might say "I broke your statue and hid it" and then we'd say "how can you fix that?" and we'd help her find a solution, like using her allowance to buy a new one. We call it a "solution" not a "punishment." Punishments are taking away TV or not being allowed to play with friends. Solutions fix the problem and can be quick, easy fixes (like putting a toy away) or longer ones (like cleaning up the mess.) Helping her clean up her conscience seems to help her not to lie.

3. We make sure we don't lie to her. We try not to say things like "we'll do that in a minute" when we know it will be 5 minutes! Even small lies teach her that lying is OK. She gets enough of that elsewhere!

4. We did try lying to her once. We told her we were going out for ice cream. She got all excited and we went through and cleaned up and got our shoes on. Then we said "we lied. We're not going out for ice cream." Then we talked about how she felt, and let her know that's how WE feel every time she lies. We do remind her of this when she lies, that also seems to help. It seemed kind of cruel at the time, but we were at the end of our rope and it did work!

We're not at 100% yet, she still lies and we do catch her, but at least for us the lying has gone down quite a bit.

I am also the mother of three, 9, 12, and 13. While lying is not a problem it does happen however, my children are old enough to understand why that is wrong and I deal with it with consequences and scripture. I pray about ALL things. If you are open for this pray for all of your children in every area of their life, from their health to the the friends they choose to the type of teacher they will have. If you believe there is a God pray daily and ask God to remove the lying spirit from your child and replace it with a spirit of truthfulness.

People (in general) do not do what we expect, but we INSPECT.

Stay the course....I had my kids clean toilets for punishment. Dirty mouth, dirty habit, etc. needs to be "cleaned" out and replaced. xo

Hi,
I didn't get a chance to read all the responses, but I sometimes have this issue w/ my ten year old son. First of all, I think it's completely normal, and they are just testing their boundrys....What I did w/ my son really has helped, and it is this: next time he tells me something, like "i brushed my teeth" for example, I look at him, and tell him I'd really like to believe him, but since you've been dishonest about this in the past, it's hard for people to believe you even when you tell the truth.....you need to earn my trust back, therefore, I need you to go and brush your teeth again while I can see you do it.....when he consistently does this, I tell him that he has earned my trust back, but if he lies again, we start all over, and it's harder on him then it is on me! When he talks to me and others, i ask him if he wants us to beleive what he is saying, and of course he says "YES", therefore, when you lie, others will have a hard time believing you!

Good Luck!

One of my favorite guides on child development is Terry Brazelton's Touch Points- some of this appears to be normal but certainly should be responded to with correction and expectations of correct behavior. Another interesting child is Stanley Greenspan's Playground Politics. How does she behave with her peers and at school? It might be another story!

S. Botana PHD
School Psychologist
Host mom and Local Childcare Coordinator with Cultural Care Au Pair
____@____.com

Put a small squirt of hand soap in her mouth and tell her that lying is a dirty habit and won't be tolerated. It worked for a friend of mine and she hasn't had a problem since. Good luck and God bless.

I'd try a punishment-rewards system where if she does something right she gets a reward and then the punishment side is more balanced off. The reward can be something like a pajama day, having a friend visit, or getting to pick a board game to play or something... something free.

And when i was a kid the punishment for lying was always worse than just whatever you did wrong to discourage lying. It worked with everyone I knew... I think that making her clean her underwear is reasonable if she's capable of it. It isn't cruel to clean up your own mess whether you meant to do it or not. In Africa the kids clean their clothes and mattresses when they wet themselves, and it's not a punishment it's just a way of life. When there ar e16 kids, the mom doesn't have time to do everything and this teaches the children responsibility. They'd never think of it as cruel.

All said, it sounds behavioral. Professionally, before I left work to be at home, I was in leadership/supervisory positions and I am the mother of 6. I have come to one conclusion...people, yep, even adults, lie because they fear something. It may be the pettiest thing--they may not want to be looked at a certain way, they may want to maintain a reputation or they just want to get away with something...
Try easing up on the consequences (without eliminating if you can, letting her "get away" with something once may help to understand her behavior). Tell her she is not in trouble, but how important it is to tell the truth always (like you already have). You might have to be careful with your words because she might be sensitive to the fact that you are on to her too.

Good luck.

Hi Cindi,
This is a very common trate for the middle child or 2nd born youngest child. My middle child was showing signs towards it young as well and I have seen they can also go towards telling "stories". I am certainly not a child psychologist but for us many times it was giving extra attention to that child. Letting them know that what they say is very important but like you are already doing making it clear that you do not tolerate lying. Dr. Dobson has a good book out called disciplining the strong willed child. I know you said you husband was the quiet type but it may take him stepping in and taking her out on little "dates" and talking to her about it. Our kid's, especially daughters really need dad's imput in their life - maybe there is someone you 2 could meet with to talk about your "discipline" plan together and that would encourage him to take a more active role. If our kid's see us as a team many of the issues go away. My middle child is my sweetest, most helpful one as well but can push me beyond belief. I don't know if that helped at all but hang in there you are doing a good job. Just encourage your husband to be proactive with her and spend one on one time with her too.

From my own experience I can tell you that if daddy doesn't say anything then you are fighting a losing battle. I didn't care what my mother thought. Don't know why I didn't care...I still don't understand the dynamic between us when we spend too much time together. I honor and respect my mother, but we get on eachothers nerves when we are around eachother too long. We talk everyday, but for short spurts...and so on.

Recently we were discussing my brother and how he is so much like his father. He rarely disciplines his daughters but will jump all over his son in a heart beat. His girls are becoming very sneaky.

I really feel that if my father had stepped in to back my mother up with discipline and told me that he was disappointed in my behavior when I got into trouble, I would have tried harder to behave. I won't go into all the trouble I got into, but it was not good at all.

My hubby and I talked about this dynamic before we had kids and decided that we would

1.) Always support eachother (quietly and discreetly give eachother the "eye" if we thought one was out of line.)

2.) We would support eachother and back eachother up in decisions...talk about it later if we don't agree with eachother. Be very kind and talk to eachtoher and come to a mutual decision like a team in front of the kids if it can't wait until later.

3.) My husband will not tolerate the kids back-talking or ignoring mommy. He will step in immediately if they aren't minding me....kids tend to listen to a male authority figure more than a female.

Now I see so much of myself and my mother in my girls...especially my oldest. But because I control my temper and my husband backs me up and we take our kids to a good church three times a week.....I can see a completely different outcome than what I experienced. My girls really try to behave. They openly and often express their love for us. And they are overall just great kids. They have their challenges from time to time and they aren't always good, but they really do try.

Your husband needs to get on board and back you up. My husband's father was hands-off as well. He would blame his wife when the kids were getting into trouble, but he never really said anything to any of them because he hated confrontation. And he wasn't willing to discipline any of the kids if they didn't obey. My husband and most of his siblings went through very tough times growing up because they ran the roost. Only throught the diligence and many, many prayers over the years by their mother did most of them turn out well.

So I would sit down with the hubby and discuss the need for a father influence in a child's life...some need that more than others. It's just a proven fact that a male has a greater influence on a child's life if they choose to interact with their kids. Even if he just backed you up with discipline and stepped in when he saw the children not listening to you, that might be enough.

They would understand that you are a team and that their father expects and demands that they listen to their mother at all times.

Then on another note, since every child is different and all respond differently to various forms of discipline I would have to say you may want to consider a more harsh form of discipline. My mother spanked me and my one brother because we didn't care about time-outs or anything else for that matter...that's what worked with us. The other brother HATED a time-out. Discipline has to be something they don't want to endure. If they don't care and continue with the bad behavior, then you need to try something else.

And please don't think that a spanking will make your daughter violent or make her hate you.....She's a strong willed child and it might just bring about the respect that she needs to have for you in order to follow the rules. I've spanked all my kids when necessary and they are the least violent kids I know. They are loving, sweet, and compassionate because they fully understand consequences and respect. My kids don't back talk me. They love me and are very affectionate toward me at all times. I hug my kids and tell them I love them all the time...even after a spanking.

It will not do anything negative to her. For centuries parents have spanked their kids and the world has not ended and in years past the world was less violent as a whole. When a spanking was standard practice you didn't see kids

shoot eachother
yell at their parents
beat up other kids all the time
get into all kinds of trouble (a bad kid was rare)
run away
drop out of school (a drop-out was rare)
have babies out of wedlock
use illicit drugs in the numbers they do now
laze around all the time

I could go on, but I think you see the picture I'm laying out here. Kids in decades past were way better than they are now and kids respected and loved their parents way more than they do now. I rarely if ever saw a kid yell at his/her parents growing up...and my mom even less. But now I see it all the time. Why is that? Because parents are afraid to discipline their kids....they don't spend enough time with them...they don't teach values anymore....most kids are raised by the television and music videos

So consistent, firm consequences and a father that backs you up might be just what your middle child ordered.

Good luck!

PS Personally I think the mommy who posted that the punishment is forching her to lie and hide from you is...well how do I put this nicely....can't think of a politically correct term. She's been indoctrinated with all the garbage that has come out of the child psychiatric comminuty for the past few decades and turned our kids into monsters.

Dear Lord, to say that consequences are driving her to lie is like saying assigning sentences to write makes a kid not want to write anymore. Or giving a criminal comminuty service makes them want to hide their crimes even more.

Your daughter lies because she's a red-blooded, living, breathing child. Many children lie. Most will lie if they have done something wrong. It's normal. And if her children don't lie it's because they know mommy won't punish them in anyway and thus they probably run the roost and do whatever they please at home and school. I've seen kids like that in the middle school I worked in for nine years.....they did what they pleased and looked at you like you were nuts if you said something about it. They got offended if you said they shouldn't do something and dismissed you completly. Their parents would come to school just aghast when you suggested that their child did something inappropriate and wouldn't stop. And would not believe that their child ever lied to them about anything.

Your daughter does need you to talk to her and all the time...but she also needs boundaries and consequences.

We had a similar problem with my daughter about a year ago when she was 6. What worked best for us was giving her tons of praise when she told the truth. Even if she did something bad we would tell her how proud we were that she had told the truth & how brave she was for "coming clean". We would make a big deal of her being truthful; like calling her father & grandmother & telling them how wonderful it was that she told the truth & they would tell her how proud they were of her too. When she did lie we took away one of her favorite privileges (for her, it was a play date with one of her friends). This technique worked in about 2 weeks & she has not lied since. I still tell her that she will not get in trouble for something if she tells the truth, but she will be in big trouble if she lies.

Hello C.:

Well I must say this is surprising that the 6 year old understand how to do this and as often as you say she is engaging in the act of lying. Well, I must first ask, what kind of TV shows is she watching? The context and content can have a negative impact on a child especially between the ages of 2 and 8 years of age. If you have cable, may I suggest channels 126 and 56 (Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, Disney Channel, and PBS) under COMCAST.

Second, why isn’t the husband doing his part in setting guidelines and rules for the kids? He needs to be involved and active so the kids understand that it is not just you making the rules. If they see him doing nothing then they feel they have little to worry about. Children generally feel the male figure in the home is the stronger and more powerful one. BUT, together the two of you should be united and consistent with parenting.

As for disciplining the daughter, begin a chart where columns are labeled: LYING, STEALING, WETTING THE BED, NOT READING HER STORY. Then, explain to her that each time she commits these acts, one of her treasured items will be taken away (out of sight for a number of days or weeks (if needed). Items you can use are--baby dolls, toys, movies, TV, DVD, friends coming over, play dates, no McDonalds, no Chuckee Cheese and so on. Once she understands that all of her goods are being taken away one by one, she will try to do better in order to get them back.

Moreover, if she is screaming and hollering at everyone, ignore her. She should know that she will not be visible is she acts and behaves a certain way. However, be kind to her ALWAYS even if she is being omnipotent and unruly. You must get her to change her reactions to things. Reinforce all the good that she does so she will want to do that more and be less encouraged to do bad things. It will be tough at first because you must change and the father as well to get her on the right track.

Lastly, as her parents you have to be her example. She cannot see you calling Dad a liar or yelling at the brothers. She must see that when you say you will do something that you mean it and act on it. You have to be cognizant of your behavior in her presence and those you interact with as well. Bad influences can come from our own friends and other family members too so make sure everyone knows the home is going to change...including Mom and Dad.

Good luck to you.

Just about any child will lie to avoid punishment or even a parents disappointment. My oldest was the chronic liar.
As a mom of three I had read about the middle child syndrome~the firstborn has the status of being the oldest and the thirdborn has the status of being the baby~ so I take every opportunity to make my middle guy feel special. Your middle child needs & wants your attention & will do whatever to get it.
Invest in a book on discipline~123 Magic by Thomas Phelan is a good one. Find ways to take a break when you feel at the end of your rope. Go to another room, take deep breaths, call a friend.
Every child brings challenges. Cut yourself & her some slack & focus on her good qualities.

If the situation is just getting worse, it sounds to me like your little one is scared of the consequences and the lack of approval they signify. She isn't honest with you because she's scared you won't approve of her, i.e. love her anymore, when she does things to which you don't approve. She also likely embarrassed by such things as soiling her pants, and by you making her wash them, you most likely are just reinforcing the shame and making her feel worse about herself, pushing her to further lie and hide.

Instead of punishing her, how about just having a little talk to her about why she didn't want to brush her teeth, ending with a reinforcement that you love her no matter what, that you want her to share with you --no matter what. If she gives you some lame excuse and doesn't want to have the talk, tell her that you will continue the discussion when she is ready to discuss it openly with you. Reinforce why bushing teeth is important, and just wait and see what she does.

I think she is clamming up out of fear of consequences, so get rid of the consequences, and see if her story doesn't change.

Child psychiatry is covered on insurance. I can give you a referral if you want to go that route. We had a problem with lying also, but we showed our son that if he wanted us to allow him to do things with friends, etc, (big kid stuff), we had to be able to trust him. ALWAYS telling the truth is how to gain trust. It took some time, but it eventually worked. He now tells the truth even if he knows he will be in trouble - BUT, he also knows that even if he gets into trouble, it's less trouble than he would be in for lying. Email me for the referral - ____@____.com.

My oldest sister (now 41) lied constantly and because she's now older (and still lies from time to time), she had told me that the reason she did so as a kid was because she always wanted to impress my mom so that my mom could be proud of her. Now, that doesn't make sense to me, because I myself wanted to impress my mom, and I didn't like, I just did the right thing. But, my sister told me just a few years ago that she didn't want to dissapoint my mom so she knew if she told the truth, she'd dissapoint her, therefore she lied in the hopes my mom would be proud.

With that said, I would try the approach of honesty is the best policy rule. But before you go there, give her some scenarios (such as if she's sitting on a chair, you can say "if I say you were sitting on the sofa, would I be telling the truth or lying to you"). Maybe, just maybe she doesn't understand the concept between telling the thruth or lying. My 5 year old newphew told my mom that his dad placed a belt around his neck when he didn't listen. My mom totally believed him and lashed out verbally at my sister and brother-in-law. That same day, I had my nephew and asked him if he knew what the difference was between the two. He said he wasn't sure. When I gave him some scenarios, he understood it better. I then asked him if he lied or told the truth when he told grandma that his dad put a belt around his neck and he said it was a lie. He then said he said it because he knew grandma would yell at his dad (something he, himself can't do).

Anyway, start small and tell her that no matter what she does, you'll always love her and that she'd get into more trouble for lying than if she told the truth. Now, you don't want to reward her for telling the truth and doing something bad (and that's something you have to figure out).

Good luck!

Here's an article that may be helpful...
http://www.parenting-ed.org/handout3/Specific%20Concerns%...

I went through this with my oldest a whole lot. I think it boils down to them not wanting to be busted so they tell stupid stories instead of owning up. When I made it clear to my son that he'd probably be in trouble for the dumb stuff, but he'd DEFINITELY be in trouble for lies, in fact twice as much, he stopped covering up. Also, I had to make a real effort to not blow my top when he came to me right away. A funny thing happened, we bonded over him being a man about it and became better pals through his teen years because he knew I'd be annoyed by whatever dumb thing he'd done (and teenaged boys do some pretty dumb stuff!) but I'd help him fix it. If he covered it up and I found out anyway (which happened a lot too) he was BUSTED and big time. I don't think it's as much to do with a middle child thing, just a growing up thing. My daughter now does it and funny thing is, my son pulled her aside and said, mom will know when you're lying, just tell her the truth, you'll be better off in the long run! Mom hates liars. Wow I nearly fainted! lol.

Hope that helps.
D.

Yes, a counselor would help but I certainly understand the whole economy crunch thing. Just a thought, have you checked with your insurance company as to what they would pick up, as many insurances do cover counseling to a certain degree.

Breaking her problem down.....
You have a few issues here. I certainly wouldn't want to call this a middle child syndrome. Don't allow excuses for her unless she is taking responsibility for her actions (the difference is, as my dad would say, if there is a "but" or "however" in the sentence, you haven't taken responsibility!"... this goes for apologies too.) If you ask her about a situation and she "clams up", immediately give her "2 minutes" to think about what she did and come up with an explanation and explain to her that "telling the truth will get her in far less trouble." She's learned how to lie - she needs to learn how to be brave and needs to know that you will not overreact, regardless of how unflattering the story may be about your daughter.

Start giving this child a little "alone time" with you - even 10 minutes a day (which YOU probably don't get this much time to yourself in a day!) and just take a walk with her, bike with her, etc... She may need some alone time with you and by lying - she may be vying for your attention and ANY attention is still attention.

Regarding lying, when you are not in the heat of the moment, you and your husband need to sit down with her down and tell her that she is not to lie, even giving examples of lying. There has to be a united front with both parents - maybe even letting your husband lead this conversation. Let her know that you want to trust her but if she continues to lie, losing the trust of her parents is awful. She will need you to be her best advocate and you can't be that person unless you trust her. Somehow you and your husband will have to convey this.

When she lies... the punishment should fit the crime - seems like you try to live that.

As far as the bowel movement problem - that sounds like more of a physical problem and the embarrassment of going in her pants at that age may be difficult for her to fess up. Somehow, that has to be conveyed to her that, should this happen, she needs to know that you will not overreact and will deal with this appropriately, but you need to know that it has happened so that you can make sure she doesn't need medical attention should it get worse.

Make sure you are the kind of person that does not tell "white lies". I have seen so many parents get upset with their children for lying, yet, they will offer little lies to get their child off their backs.

Good luck with your little one.

Lying is something I haven't tolerated from my child from the beginning. Once a child starts lying, it's hard to break. Let her know lying is not to be tolerated. Tell her the lying upsets you more than what she did wrong. When she does admit the truth of something, don't punish it or at least don't punish it severely. Honestly, I don't see what good a psychologist is going to do for lying. If you're the one she's lying to, you're the one who will have to help her correct it.

Here's a behavior modification strategy: Without her knowledge, keep a tally chart for a period of time (a day, a week, whatever). Every time you catch her in a lie, make a tally mark. This is your control chart. At the end of your time period, count up how many times she's lied within that period. Next, sit down with your daughter and set a goal that reduces the number of lies with a reward for meeting that goal at a certain point. Don't make it too hard because it's discouraging if she doesn't meet the goal. Just gradually adjust the goal until she's got her lying out of control. You could even have her make the tally marks so she's more aware and can keep an eye on her chart.

If I can explain that better, just let me know!

Thanks for posting
My 5 yr old daughter recently started some serious experimenting with lying.
Gotta nip it.
I have asked my husband to make this issue first priority.
He plans to talk to her on their next "date."

Perhaps having daddy step in might help.
Do a daddy/daughter date.
On the next date have him work the issue into the date briefly.
On subsequent dates:
Have him explain his expectation to her.(pretty teeth, not smelling up the house with dirty underwear, do schoolwork so he can be proud of her accomplishments, make good food choices so she can be healthy, ect.)
Good luck