Is It Independence or Defiance?

Maria,

I have a daughter like this as well (and was one myself). All I can say is that I have always been very independent, moved 2000 miles from home at age 19, started my own business and "retired" by age 30. I struggle with the right balance with my daughter, as I don't necessarily want her to rebel in the same ways I did (though in my case, sometimes due to luck, it all seemed to work out wonderfully). I'd say you might find a compromise of easing up on some rules or making her feel grown up every chance you get, but by letting her know that sneaking and lying are not ways to earn trust. Again, when I was a kid I WAS going to do what I wanted to do and being put in a position of being told no sort of "forced" me to sneak. Going after what I wanted was a trait that I am glad I have, and one I don't want to drill out of my daughter...In my case there was no issue learning the morality of lying at a certain point, and so hopefully that will be the case for you. Hope that helps, as I only have my own experience than my daughters since she is too young to reflect on yet. Good luck!

It looks like you have a combination of independence and defiance, just as would be expected! What we all need to remember as parents is just because something is EXPECTED doesn't mean is has to be ACCEPTED. For example it is perfectly expectable that a 2 year old may bite you or another child, but that doesn't mean it is acceptable. There would be consequences. What we all need to decide is what will be acceptable in our families.

As for the sneaking things to school, it seems there may be some miscommunication with your daughter and a chance that she really didn't know she couldn't bring those things. For this I'd just sit down and clearly set out the expectations for non-school items in the backpack. Pencils, paper, homework, etc. are great, but anything else she needs to ask about. If she sneaks again there will be consequences. Then follow through with those. Like you said it is not about the items, but the sneaking.

As for the continuing to do something after she's been told to stop, that is not childish. It is disobedient, and needs to stop. Two year olds are old enough to know that NO means No. It will be a long hard road for her in life if she doesn't learn this important lesson. There should be imediate and unpleasant consequences for not obeying the first time. No counting to three, or 'if I have to tell you one more time...', just go straight to 'I asked you to stop (don't, clean-up, whatever) and you didn't so now ...(whatever the consequence is). The consequence for each type of disobedience should be the same each time. For not turning off the tv when asked, no tv for a week. For not cleaning up when asked, the toys, crayons, playdoh, whatever is gone for a week. For not getting ready for bed when asked, bed time is 1/2 hour earlier for a week. For not doing a job (set the table, make the bed, etc.) when asked, another two jobs are added. You get the idea. :o) She will too! We also have a consequence for complaints about the consequences. She decided to disobey and she knew there would be a consequence. She made her choice, so there will be no complaining/whining about it. I usually make the original consequence worse (another two days without for each complaint, or similar). My girls learned really quick that things only got worse when they started complaining. They also learned really quick that life is better when they just do what is asked of them when it is asked.

You are correct that rules and boundries are needed. Kids are like rivers. When the stay within their boundries, they are amazing, powerful and terrific assests to the world, but when they start spilling over the edges they become destructive to themselves and everything around them, not mention a giant mess!

I was having similar issues and like you, I wasn't worried about the things going to school I just didn't like the sneaking part. So, we have a rule in my house that my mil told me about (this was her household rule when she was a child). My rule is backpacks are packed at night and ALL request for things to be brought to school need to be asked the night before. It's taken time to truly implement but my kids know if they ask in the morning primarily when we are rushed the answer will always be no. I do follow up with spot checks of backpacks in the morning and sometimes I find myself removing items. We did have a few tantrums but we lived. I hope this helps.

Dear M,
Your daughter is probably a lot like you! She is bright and wants to make her own decisions which you want her do. Your goal is to raise an independent and responsible adult. She has to start somewhere. Sometimes she will make the wrong decisions which you will want her to reflect upon and come up with the right conclusions. If you have a "obedience" relationship, she will not come to you to work out her decision making process but rather use another adult or child or herself. I have a nine year old and a seven year old. One is compliant and one tests the boundaries. With my oldest I have to stop myself from thinking "why isn't he obeying" to let's talk through your decisions. What are the consequences of bringing items to school? (you could loose it, teacher might confiscate) You want her to come up with these reasons while you sit back without judgement. Thank you for your question because it is an issue I'm dealing with and in writing my answer to you, I redefine the direction I want to take as a supportive rather than dogmatic parent.

Your 6 year sounds a little like you, smart mature and extremely amazing, but what I must divulge to you is that she is getting attention, wheather negative or otherwise, its attention just the same. Her competition is her little sis. It is not a problem to wear sandals or fancy shoes to school, what I mean from that is she will not be harmed in any way because of this. So what the hey...your struggle is very different, these actions are just responses...Believe me when I tell you the struggle for power will not fade as time goes by, it just intenisifies. So let us nip this in the bud...when is the last time you spent on the floor coloring with your daughter...saying nothing, just coloring..you and her and the coloring book. It may be hard not to say anything, but patience is a wonderful thing. Find her doing something good and only focus on those good deeds. If at first you can't find any good deeds, then you are resourseful, make some happen for her. Untimately, you will find that she will seek you out for attention in a different fashion. I am married with three children, 24, 22 and 19. I am married and am self employed operating environmental company. I am proud to say my kids are good people and still seek my positive attention (not in coloring books at this time) and advice during their adult years. All the best D.

Pick your battles. For your daughter to take them to school and not tell you, it must have been very important to her. What about telling her that you would like to know what she is taking to school (appropriate or not). And then let her take anything unless it is expensive. (I know she would not have anything that is not safe.) She is growing up, and really a six year old, so all of this is normal. Take a deep breath and don't let the problem get out of hand. One thing is to say, "I will talk to you later bout what happened" and then leave the room and after you calm down, think abit, then go back and sit down with her and discuss it. Try to say yes as much as you can and no when you need too. And once you say no do not give in and say yes. It sounds like she just wants some freedom abit.
F.

Sounds like your daughter is trying to be more independent and in doing so, is being defiant too. Read the Love and Logic books and try giving her more choices so that she can feel more "in charge" of herself and won't have to act out. Good luck!

i have a 7 year old with many of the same issues. we have had some of the sneaking trouble and have consequenced simply. i know she wants to 'show off' what she has and 'other kids' bring stuff to school. at the same time, her classroom rule is no electronics and only share stuff on fridays. share in her class (1st grade) is education based. no plain toys. we have had boots ruined because she wore them to school to play and do pe in. the natural consequence is those boots are no longer pretty and for dressier occasions. this frustrates her as she does like to be girly. we usually use the talk for the disappointments. you were not honest with us and this is causing problems. if we can't trust you... she gets it but at the same time, i remember sneaking stuff to school at that age. keep talking, it will get better.

Talk to her again about the sneaking them to school part. Tell her that you will let her bring one thing to school but she must not take it out until after school as long as she tells you the truth about things. This worked very well with my son and I told him that I was more angry about the sneaking things to school and would start doing backpack checks if he is not honest with me. I also told him that they enforce these rules at school to prevent bullying and to prevent kids from showing off. I am really working with him now about honesty so we don't have a problem later. It is really working.

I had a similar situation with my 5 1/2 year old son. He kept sneaking Pokemon cards into his backpack to trade with the older 2nd grade boys at recess. His teacher forbid them in class and she told him not to bring them to school. He since then, had been caught doing it 2 more times and she took them away. We had talks with him about it and even took away priveleges but that didn't seem to matter to him. The cards were a way to connect and be accepted by the older kids. The final straw was when he stole his friends Pokemon book from his backpack and brought it home. I made him call the parents and friend and apologize and brought it back the next day. We finally had to really enforce this rule because he wasn't getting the seriousness of it. I checked his pockets and backpack every morning and if I found something hidden, the punishments became more severe and the lectures longer and more intense. He finally stopped. Check her backpack each morning and she'll realize then, that her efforts are fruitless. She's not a naughty girl, this behavior is totally normal and has more to do with impressing her friends than with the desire to break away from mom's rules.

I also have a 7 year old daughter who is mean to my 5 1/2 year old at times. She is fiercely competitive with him and constantly has to show him who's boss. Recently, I instilled a chore chart and included a new item "Be kind to your brother". So far, it's been two weeks and she's been much nicer to him. As a result, we have far fewer fights and peace in the house. Good luck.

Jen S.'s advice was great. If your daughter is being told repeatedly to do something and she is ignoring you NOW, how do you think she will be in a couple of years? She has learned that you do not mean what you say and that may cause you and her much heartache down the line. As to relaxing rules, she is only 6 and still needs firm boundries to keep her safe. That doesn't mean you have to be totally authoritarian. I liked the V analogy Kim used. Pick your battles but MEAN IT and FOLLOW THROUGH when you choose to tell her to do something. You sound reasonable in your expectations. Let her know what the expectations are and what the consequences will be for willful disobedience and you won't go wrong.
As to the backpack thing, talk to her about what is OK and not OK to take to school and check out her backpack regularly to be sure the rules are followed. I hear the independence thing from some of the other moms, BUT she is still only 6 and her judgement is not going to always be the best.
You sound like a good mom, loving and aware. Best wishes.

Hi!
My daughter is a little younger than yours and seems to be doing similar things. She's still asking about things, but when she's told no, she often asks the other parent (or grandma, as the case may be)... I think it's somewhat of a control issue... sort of like the toddler who holds it and then pees in his pullup because it's something they have control over... I have the same issues of what is appropriate to wear to school and my daughter always wants to wear something else. I was thinking of making a weather chart and update it every evening with the "parameters", and let her pick her clothes and shoes accordingly. I TRY to relax and let her pick whatever she wants to over the weekend, but there are times I say "No dresses at the park" because I'm concerned she'll get hurt... They know the only thing in their backpacks are what is allowed at school and I'm in a position where I have to check it because I always have to refill her milk, so when the milk goes back into her lunchbox, anything non-essential comes out of her backpack. Then I assure her that I will watch whatever it was that she was going to take for her. You might try that and offer to "babysit" it. ;) Good luck!

i believe that you need to relax a bit and let your six year old girl be a six year old girl! i don't see this as sneaky at all. big deal she took a pair of shoes to school-is it a big deal? i have a 13 year old daughter and if you don't lighten up a little, the future years with your daughters are going to be very painful. so stop being so intense and have fun because these are the EASY AND FUN years. just wait!!!! it's still fun but definitely not so easy. take care!

It's difficult to tell from your story...so I have a two questions. Did she know the items were not allowed to be taken to school? Did you ask her why she took them to school?

Yes, I'd say relax your rules. Just keep remembering the rule: Pick Your Battles. Especially with strong-willed children. If she wants to wear sandals in the rain, let her. They are her feet. If things like that are against school rules, let the school deal with it.

If you don't relax you will be in for constant fighting. That will not be enjoyable or healthy for either of you. If she takes her good stuff to school and it gets lost, well, that's natural consequences. Just don't replace the stuff.

Also, don't overestimate the "maturity" of a six-year-old. She's only six, after all.

I'm all about integrity and honesty. The fact that she owned up on taking things to school with out asking should be valued. A simple explanation of the expectations.... I am so happy you told me about taking the shoes to school. I understand that made you feel special. Next time you should check with me because the school has rules about what you can bring and we have rules too. You were very careful with the shoes, but next time I would like you to check in with me about it. ... or something like that.

My daughter has a "Sharing" event at school and picks her own items, but that doesn't absolve me from knowing what she is taking. When she receives instructions, I step in to find out what is being taken and guide her to think through the choice. When it was bring something you made, I stepped in to hear idea, which was to pour a bunch of stuff together from the kitchen (kitchen chemistry) and bring in the stuff. I suggested she follow a recipe and make a small change. Then bring in the treats.

Anyway, there are rules in all of life, home should be no different. My guide is to say yes as often as I can and when I have to say no, I think about my reasoning (health/safety, $$, future impact, etc.). When we do what is expected, we earn freedoms because we've shown we are responsible.

S

I agree that this sounds like typical six year old behavior. Have you discussed with her teacher what the attitude is at school regarding her bringing in these things? I think that's one important step. If the teacher doesn't want her bringing them, she'll have consequences to deal with at that level too, and you should know what those are.

I also agree you need to relax a bit with this. Do be sure you've calmly and firmly given your instructions to her, but don't freak out when she doesn't always do what you want. It's partly testing the boundaries, partly just six year old impulsiveness, and maybe a little bit of rebellion mixed in, but it's a stage that you'll both get through better by being calm about it.

Just a personal experience that may help you put this into a better perspective... when our son was in third grade, I was doing my one morning a week at school helping in his and his sister's classrooms. I had finished in his sister's room and was taking a short break before going to his class. As I sat in the teachers' break room, his teacher came in. She was acting principal for that day and had a sub in her room because the principal had gone to some sort of meeting. She smiled as she asked me to come into the office before going to my son's class, because she had something to discuss with me. Imagine my surprise when I got into the office and sat down, only to have her open a drawer and pull out a large knife that my husband used for tree trimming. Seems our son had sneaked that knife to school that day, and had it hidden in his desk. As the children went to recess, someone bumped against his desk and the knife fell out on the floor. Their questioning of our son had convinced them that his intent was to bring it as a "show and tell" type of item, so they didn't plan any harsh punishment. However, they wanted me to pick the knife up and take it home after school and for me and my husband to have a serious talk with our boy to reinforce what they'd told him about the serious consequences that could have come from the incident. This was not long after the 'zero tolerance' type of rules went into effect regarding drugs and weapons in school, so the incident could have had some quite dire consequences for our son. We were fortunate to have a school where people used common sense in applying the rules. By the way, that same week, his cousin who was about the same age got caught in his school setting fire to the trash in the boy's bathroom wastebasket, and was treated with the same type of common sense discipline.
I hope sharing this helps you realize that kids do silly, and sometimes rather dumb, or even dangerous things, but we do live through it, and in later years we can actually look back at those times and have a good laugh about them.

Hi M.! I too struggle with distinguishing between curiosity, independence and defiance. Since your daughter is 6 going on 10 (or 17) she has a mind of her own and wants to run her own. Now, I have had similar problems with my soon to be 6 year old son. I come from a law enforcement background, and those in our business tend to look at everything from a criminal standpoint, rather than a normal developmental stand point. I know that it is easier for me when my son is acting older than his age because it makes my life easier. However, I also have to acknowledge To combat some of this, I began defining the rules and sticking to them. For instance, my son likes to watch Hannah Montana, and although it is relatively harmless, I have seen somethings come up that are not age appropriate so I am restricting his watching. I think we forget, at least I do, that kids will protest and regress when implementing something new. So, I don't know if that was helpful, but I would definitely remind her of the rules, then reinforce them by checking her backpack before leaving for school.

Good luck and keep the faith!

Your daughter sounds totally normal. She sounds exactly like my almost 9 year old. And your reaction sounds exactly like mine did. What I have learned since then is your daughter will continue to struggle to find out who she is, what her "style" is (seems important for this age), who her friends will be, what her interests are. All this will change constantly. You need to set the rules you feel are important, like being honest and not sneaky, and be consistent with those rules but let her be flexible about her personal discoveries. Does that make sense? In other words, let her take whatever she feels she needs to school but tell her the rule is that she has to let you know if she is bringing anything. That way if it is something inappropriate you can have a discussion. If your daughter continues like mine did, being able to talk about things has been a key in keeping us grounded. I say no to plenty, but I say yes a lot too. And we have weathered many a storm and made it through plenty of phases, not all pretty.

Another thing you must remember, she is 6. As a mom of a very mature little girl, I often forgot that. In her day to day activities she seemed much older, and that through me off and often changed my expectations of her. I constantly had to remind myself that she was young and needed my guidance. I would jump on her too much about things I thought she should know, but when I really stopped to think, I realized she was still so young.

Everything your daughter is doing is totally normal! Try to simplify whatever you can, it will not only help her out but also help things with the little one. And remember, be consistent! She will be fine, and so will you :)

Hi M.!

I can tell from your posting that your emotions are really struggling with all of this. I am sorry this is so difficult for you. There is really a couple of ways of looking at your situation from my point of view.

About the school items, there could be a couple of explanations. It could've been "show & tell" day, and she might be an independent little girl to gather her own "show & Tell".........which, by the way, is how you would like your daughter to be :O) OR.... she could be taking these things to school for insecurity reasons. Maybe she needs to bring "cool stuff" to school to "show off" for some reason. Either of these ways sounds like a good reason for a 6 year old to take these items to school. Maybe you can make a conscience effort to communicate with her about her day afterschool so she begins to share more with you :O) These "actions" truly sound harmless, so far, unless she has the need to "show off", then that would be a seperate issue.

About her little sister, she is acting totally NORMAL, in my opinion. I have found that the "oldest" child finally tries to "be the boss" one day on their younger siblings. I remember trying to be that way, too. It's "OK" to a point, as long as it's harmless. I found that if I was in the same room as my kids then my oldest wouldn't take advantage. During this "stage" I began to give my older son the words and action to use to play with his little brother in an age-appropriate way.

Younger siblings seem to just want to be with their big brothers or sisters no matter what the game is. The older child doesn't even have to try to persuade them to play, and they will simply do anything just to be with their sibling :O) Once my oldest "understood" that (because I kept telling him), then the dominating stopped, and there was a more respectful playing time between the two of them. It was more fun for both of them, and especially it was eaiser on me :O)

M., just continue to be a loving, caring mother. Make sure you are talking to your daughter about her small acoomplishments, and praise her for her independence.

Everything will be fine.

~N. :O)

Hi M., just wanted to let you know that my friend's daughter who's the same age does this same thing all the time. You're not alone!! I think its that they're stubborn and want to do what they want to do!! I would just say.. just remember back to your childhood and some of the crazy things you did.. I for instance wore shorts a short sleeve shirt and gloves without my mom knowing... what the heck!! Good luck!

Dear M.,

Amazing mature six year old that is sweet, thoughtful, conniving and mean; that you try to be patient with when she behaves childishly? I’m confused; do you think your daughter might be?

A six year old does not have the maturity to make the best decisions for themselves. Your daughter has a quick temper and sounds a bit stubborn. Still you and your husband make the rules, set the guidelines, love, reward and discipline when discipline is needed.

Her wanting to wear sandals in rainy weather doesn’t bother me; you can just let her know that if she does, she will have to wear sox or tights with the sandals. That she is mean to her little sister would bother me and I would make sure that behavior stopped immediately. If she is as mature as you say, she needs to understand that there will be consequences for bad behavior and you mean what you say the FIRST time. Stop repeating yourself when you ask her to do something. Put her in time out if she doesn’t stop.

As for the backpack incidents, I’m not sure why a six year old needs a backpack, but if she does, check what’s in it before she goes to school. If she’s taking things to school that you don’t want her to, take the backpack away.

No, I don’t think you need to relax your rules, I think you need to enforce your rules because if she’s this quick tempered and stubborn at six, you’re in for a rough ride when she’s sixteen and so is the rest of the family.

Blessings…..

Are you sure she was sneaking? Or did she just not think it was any big deal to ask you? You say you would have said no, but you also said it wasn't a big deal and that you didn't care about these items.
I think your messages to your daughter may be confusing, and she is not sure when she is supposed to ask your opinion and when she can decide for herself. Did she take them for an organized sharing time? Or did she just want to show off to her friends at recess? I would address the appropriateness of when/why she wanted to bring these things to school. If it was to show off, did it make her feel good and other kids feel bad? To me, that's not acceptable and the part I would talk about.
I guess I'm saying you need to decide what part is upsetting to you and address that. Don't worry about "sneaking" if she truly didn't think about it, just let her know to be more aware in the future that if there's any question, she can always ask you for advice or opinions. Promise never to get mad at her for asking questions and keep those lines of communication open!

Maybe it is "show and tell" to her friends, an innocent way of socializing and sharing what she finds "cool".

The very best advice I ever got in raising kids was to pick you battles. The reason it is important is that you don't stress yourself out over trying to fight every battle and you child soon learns that when you pick a battle, you WILL win the battle so they learn to comply when you put your foot down.

That said, The battle I always fought was against lying and sneakiness. Those are not acceptable. I'd give her a warning with a concequense if the lying or sneakiness happens again-- AND I wouldn't put up a fuss about her taking stuff to school unless it is forbidden by the school or dangerous.

It sounds like you have a good kid and you are a good mom. Keep talking and it will all be fine.

Okay.
You do answer your own question here.
You think she snuck them because she knew you'd say no.
That is, she was deliberately doing something she knew was against the rules.
That said, of course you don't punish her for this.
You didn't catch her at it; she told you about it.
And that trust is more important than the implicit defiance involved.
You do tell her that it wouldn't have been okay with you, and you don't like her sneaking it by like that.
And you do start checking the backpack daily.
Why does she have a backpack anyway, what goes in it?
I assume something like snack and maybe some clothing.
While it is handy to have her "in charge" of her own stuff, you know now that she isn't really mature enough to do this alone.
You know this because she didn't know better than to pack it with inappropriate things.
Part of your morning routine is now a last minute check of the bag, daily for a few months, and spot checks after for a *long* time.
(Maybe change the morning routine, so that you yourself put a last minute snack in it right before leaving.)
Why do I think it is worth this, after all "all the kids do this and it is a stage?"
Because I think otherwise you are implicitly accepting that her 6 year-old decision making trumps your adult rules.
Eventually, yes, she will have to be the one making all her own decisions, but even a very mature 6 year old is very far from that day.
She should not be learning that sneaking will work.
For now, mommy really needs to be in charge.

Well, My children are still too young for me to have to worry about this, but this is how I would handle it. I would sit her down and talk to her, since she is a mature 6 year old. I would ask why she wanted to take those things to school and why she didn't ask. I would let her know I was not upset, but not asking is not okay and next time I would be. It really isn't a big issue unless you make it one. My 3 year old sneaks his toys into his backpack for kindergarten, I know it is not the same, but it shows that it is that for some reason they want them with them. At this point I don't think she needs to be punished, next time yes, since you laid down the rules. I do think you need to relax your rules and pick your battles, like the sandal think, no big deal, she will just have cold feet and probably won't do it again. You can't get sick from being cold. She sneaked the items because she knew you would say no, who hasn't done that when they were kids? Remember what it was like to be a kid and temper your response with that. Punish when you havea to, but I'd be 1/2 your arguments would not escalate it you looked at it with a different point of view. Good luck.