Discipline: Counting to 3...or 4, or 5, or 6 - Westmont,IL

the best thing I can say is re-read Marda's advice...she is right on track with everything!!!
The next thing is...RELAX...it sounds like you are doing a great job...just don't overload him with the details, he is too young to comprehend all of that right now.
I want to emphasize the idea she had of making things a game!!! The goal is to get things done...if it takes a bit of "play " to acomplish that goal...then so much the better because everyone ends up with a smile on their face!!

I wouldn't waver! I know if I did in my house, my oldest would exploit that for everything it's worth. I would be counting to 50! It's only 3 for us. I've found the constant reminding of times that you mentioned has been great for us. But when I hit 3, whatever I said -better be getting done!

Get the book 1, 2, 3 Magic. It will help with EXACTLY what you are dealing with. It's a quick easy read. You might even find it at the library. Good Luck.

The official "1-2-3 Magic" method was created to be used in a very specific way, which ends in a time-out when you get to 3. In other words, "1-2-3 Magic" created to STOP an undesirable behavior (whining, stalling, talking back, etc.) and it sounds like you might be trying to use a version of the technique to influence your son during "START" behaviors (wash your hands before dinner and come to the table promptly, always say please and thank you, etc.) In some of your examples, I'm not sure you would really want to put your child in a time-out for failure to comply. So maybe this is not the correct technique in some of these cases.

There is a specific "1-2-3 Magic" program for START behaviors, but I have never watched it.

I strongly recommend you get a hold of the "1-2-3 Magic" DVD. It's short, easy to understand with great examples, and you should watch it with anyone else in your family that has discipline duties. Because consistency is the key (as with all discipline tools!) This DVD will help explain what a STOP behavior is -- and then you'll be able to tell in any given situation whether the method will be effective or not.

Good Luck -- I think you'll find 1-2-3 Magic very effective!!

PS...I almost *never* have to count to "2." If they haven't already complied to my request, they immediately respond when I hit "1." Let's be honest -- young children aren't always able to do exactly what they are told, every single time. That being said, I cannot remember the last time I've had to count "3." Maybe around Thanksgiving or Christmas?? And my kids have just turned 3 and 4! When 1-2-3 Magic is used the right way, you are NOT teaching your children that they can drag-out what they want, or that they do not have to take you seriously. As long as you are using the technique correctly, this will not happen.

Are you saying that you remind him of the schedule during the day and that you give him 5, 2, and then 1 minute warnings and then add counting to three to those. I think that is over doing it. Do one or the other and leave out the detailed plan for him. If you choose the counting, count to 10 slowly. Three seconds is not enough time to transition and do most things. I think at 3 he will not be able to respond to the multiple warnings.

You can do both techniques but not both at the same time. Some tasks need a warning ahead of time. An example would be: "We're leaving for the store in 10 minutes." This makes him aware that there will be a change. Then when it's time to go tell him to get his coat and start counting as you head for the door if he doesn't head for the coat. Most 3 year olds don't benefit from a warning that requires action later because they will be distracted during that 5 minutes. In this instance the warning is only for transition purposes.

If the purpose of a warning is to get him moving and he doesn't start moving then start the countdown but don't wait 5 minutes. He'll be distracted in that 5 minutes. To warn several times does tell him it's not time to do it yet.

I try to time my counting so that the child is able to get it done. Therefore I may count to 15 one time and 5 the next. I don't think I ever count less than 5. If they are moving towards getting it done I pause towards the end to give them time. If they're not headed in the right direction I tell them to step on it in a humorous way. For example I might say, "oh,oh Johnny is just too slow today. Guess he needs a push. And then I'd rush towards him with my hands out. Usually that would cause him to get it done. But if it doesn't or if he's developing a pattern of not cooperating I'd provide a consequence based as close as possible on what he was or wasn't doing. If it's picking up toys then I'd pick up the toys and put them away. I would let him know that is what would happen.

The goal is to get the toys picked up. The counting is just one way to get that done. At 3 he will need some time to switch from what he's doing to picking up the toys. Giving him a 5 minute warning doesn't get him started on picking up the toys. It does help him know what's coming. He won't start picking up until you start counting. A warning is just that a warning and not a call to action. At 3 he'll most likely have forgotten that you gave him a warning. Tell him to do it, wait a few seconds and then start counting.

You wouldn't have to count if he's steadily doing what he's supposed to do. In fact counting works best when it's not used all of the time; if it's used only when he needs an added incentive.

Another technique that I use instead of counting that is similar is to say," I bet I can get to the door before you can." Kids love competition. My 6 year old grandson now tells me he can get to the car before I can and if I'm lagging too far behind he tells me to please hurry up or run, Gramma, run. :):)

Telling him the schedul isn't effective in getting things done either. At 3 he can't remember the schedule. Tell him what the next thing will be before the last thing is done. Or you can say, we're going to the gym today but telling him each step has no meaning for him. When it's getting to be time to leave tell him that as soon as he picks up his toys you're going to the gym. You can also use going to the gym as an incentive to get other things done. You can say we need to get things done so that we can go to the gym later. Then, if he balks about doing something you can tell him that you need him to do this so that you'll have time to go to the gym. Deal with one activity at a time. At 3 the most he can remember is one thing at a time with a transition in between activities. The length of time he needs for a transition depends on his personality.

I wonder if you're trying too hard to do the best possible job. Try relaxing and not worrying about whether or not your son understands how the day will be. Have in mind what you want to accomplish and you arrange activities so that you can get it done but he's too young to be involved in the plans. You're the mommy. You're in charge. As long as you are reasonable in what you expect from him he doesn't need to know the details to accomplish one task at a time. It's too much information.

I found this hard to explain. Perhaps I didn't understand what you were describing. Hopefully, you're not giving him multiple chances but if you are he is immature and will take those chances. One thing at a time all day long sounds boring but it's not to a small child. It's Mom who needs to know each step.

123 as a discipline tool is not counting to count. You use it as a "hey your going to get a consequence tool" and the consequence needs to be understood. So ... Joey you need to put your toys away. period. if he doesn't do it you say 1. if still not done you say 2. still not done you say 3 and he gets an immediate consequence. that would be time out toys took away whatever your choice of consequence. but it needs to happen right then. and don't waver from it. you shouldn't be getting progressively angry etc and he will test you over and over. but if you consistently stick to it it will work. my children understood the counting by the time they were 2. give him notice of what you want done. counting as a discipline technique is not the same as giving a 5 minutes heads up that hey your going to be done playing soon. make sure you yourself are how your using and why. if its as a countdown to leaving/doing something that is not the same as 123 magic. 123 magic is a discipline

My sign language teacher taught us a song she learned at her daughter's preschool. I used it consistenly, as do my parents and some friends now and it works really well. I'd say 90% of the time, my son, starting at age 2, does exactly what I need him to do and if he doesn't, I do feel that I gave him fair warning.

"I look at my watch and what does it say? Five more minutes to play, okay? Five more minutes.". Then you just repeat it as you count down....the nice thing is that you can do real minutes or your minutes, or whenever, but it gives them a nice heads up that you are switching events. I love it. At the end, you just say "No more minutes" and you immediately switch to whatever you need to do.

My son is 2 1/2 and he will now come up to me and say "no more minutes to play" when he is ready to go home. And then there are days when I pop my head in the play room and he yells "TWO MORE MINUTES" even though I am just checking on him.

I think you are doing a great job by giving him a heads up, but I would limit the events you are reminding him to one or two.

Try the song, it sounds silly, but the kids all seem to listen to it and it really does seem to work.

I also use the same systems you do and have pretty good success with it. My kids turn 5 and 6 this summer. It didn't work as well when my kids were 3. At that age I think the warning countdown was good for transitioning but I would have to help with the task, whether it be getting shoes and coats on, picking up toys, getting pj's on, etc. Counting to 3 wasn't much motivation for them. That started working better at age 4.

If I say I am counting to 3, I don't continue on to 4 or 5. When I give the warning countdown, I usually say something like, "In 10 minutes you will need to stop playing and get your shoes on so we can go to the store." Same for 5 minutes and 2 minutes.

You might want to read the book "1-2-3 Magic". It gives advice for counting to three, including "pitfall" parents run into that thwart the process. I used to work for a behavioral health agency and they used the principles in this book with the kids they worked with.

I encourage you to not use the counting rule. What it does is let the kids know that they don't have to do it right that second, because they can wait until you're done counting. In my opinion, it teaches them that they don't have to listen right away. I prefer saying "Before you do anything else, go put your shoes on" At three, he's old enough to follow directions and to also receive discipline for not listening. When my kids were that age, I never told them what the plans were like you do. I would think that it's meaningless to them because kids are "in the moment" thinkers. I don't believe they really need large warnings like that. Maybe you could say "finish playing and when the timer goes off it's time for us to get ready to leave", and set a kitchen timer. I don't even think that's necessary though. With my kids, I would just say "okay, time to pick up so we can leave." Then, we'd all 3 sing together, "clean up! clean up! Everybody clean up!" over and over. They actually loved the song, which I just made up, and so they'd sing and sing until all the toys were put away. I also would make fun games out of things, like I'd say "Whoever is ready to leave last is a rotten egg!" I never had any issues with them, and if they got upset about having to stop playing, and therefore whined or whatnot, they got in trouble for disobeying. Normally this came in the form of taking the toy they refuse to put away and putting it up on the fridge so they lose the privilege of having it for awhile. I definitely would try to not be reminding him of your plans coming up either. Honestly, he doesn't care, nor will he really think another second about it because as long as you're not saying that you're leaving "now", then it isn't his concern.

Hi K.. I use the 123Magic method too, so my point of view is based on that. I think you need to have a hard-and-fast "consequence" when you use any counting technique. For example...if you tell him he needs to have his toys cleaned-up by the count of 3, he must know what the consequence is and you must execute it, without exception. Such as: any toy that is on the floor after you count 3 goes into a garbage bag and is put in time-out for a week (etc.) But this is pretty severe stuff for a 3 year old. Hence, I would save the counting for behaviors you need to correct. (Like MomLK mentioned, the "stop" behaviors.) Without a consequence, he will definitely learn to dawdle. Per the other posters, try to get the"123 Magic" DVD from the library, if you can. It will help you in many ways.

EDIT: I think "advance notice" is always a great idea to help ease the transitions! Your instincts are terrific!!

My opinion is, when you count to three, you are pretty much telling him not to take you serious and that the first time you told him to do it, he knew you weren't serious and that he had until 3, to mind you. I would stop with the counting to three, all together.

I like sharing "the plan" too! That really helps them know what's coming next. With my 2.5 yr old I try to keep it to no more than 3 things, and then I have her repeat them back to me ("when we get home we're going to read a book, brush teeth, and put jammies on." then when we start the book, I remind her "just one book. what are we doing after we finish this book?"...you get the idea...)

When she is uncooperative I'll count down from 5. Personally, I think there is more finality in a countdown than a count-up, and I didn't like the threatening way I sounded with the traditional 1-2-3 (and with 5 #'s rather than 3, I can count a little faster but be effective in the same amount of time). I don't count with anger (usually). I do it when I've asked her to do it "now" and she is dilly-dallying or she is just being stubborn. The consequence is that we do it mommy's way or Mommy gets to do it rather than my daughter doing it herself. I frequently present it as a CHOICE to her-- you can do it now, OR if I get to 1, then we do it MY way. Follow through is key--kids will learn after not cooperating 1 or 2 times that you mean what you say and they will cooperate after that.
As an example, she likes to get in the carseat herself and do the chest buckle herself, but if she doesn't get in in a timely manner, I count and if I count 5-4-3-2-and get to 1, then I grab her and do it "the hard way". She usually cooperates because she wants to do it herself.
If she is just being whiney/stubborn/or a bear to handle, then the consequence is "go cry in your room" or cooperate or go on "time-out" (these work b/c she doesn't want to be alone) .

I have to agree...all you're teaching him is that he can get you to push what he wants longer. At 3...they know. Kids are smarter than we think. I used to count slow with my (now 4yr old)....giving a few second interval in between numbers...I learned that she would wait until I almost got to 3 to do what she was told. So now I count FAST. She moves a lot faster. It still usually takes til 2 before she moves...but she does.

Also no point in giving him more numbers. All that does is confuse him. He thinks today 3 isn't the magic number whereI need to stop. Maybe it's 5 or 6. Talk to him and let him know once you get to THREE if he's not on the move, he's in trouble. End of story.

The time announcement thing is a bit much as well. Kids seriously have no concept of time. If you need him to do something by a certain time you have to allot enough time for him to do it. If he's dawdling...tell him he's going to start losing priveledges, or a favorite toy, or go into the corner, or some sort of punishment. Telling him he has 5 minutes or 100 minutes...they have no idea.

Good luck. :)

If 3 means concequence, everytime, he will stop dawdling. You are just telling him how long he has to keep not doing what you ask. I would suggest that you just step it up, if he expects the concequence as soon as he does not comply, it is not very much different than getting it at 3 every time, and you save yourself the counting. Cosistency is the key for what ever you do! If he thinks he can get to 6, the next thing you know, he will be at 10 and more, and counting becomes meaningless (smart little buggers...)

For stopping behaviros, I like to tell them what to do instead, they are better able to comply. Instead of "stop whining" I would say, "speak nicely" or instad of "stop jumping" say "keep both feet on the floor." It works at this stage, but is harder to do than it sounds-you will have to work on it!

He might not really be as stubborn as you think, he could just be a typcial three year old who takes more time than you realize to process what you are asking of him. Put it in his language, and stay consistent if he makes a bad choice with imeadiate concequences, and you will be surprised.

M.

i understand - i use a similar technique, i will tell my son, "soon i will be calling you in for dinner, so go play now and no arguing when i call you." then once i do call him, he resists, so i count.... it's tempting to keep counting sometimes...but i don't. it's timeout after three, even if he's in the process of starting. he pushes and dawdles deliberately, and honestly i think the counting doesn't help that. seriously, when i call him in from playing with the neighborhood kids, he does the "i'm coming....." thing...and i see him, barely moving...and meanwhile i'm at 2, almost three...i'm like, RUN! come here NOW! lol. when my mom called me you MOVED. if she had been at 2 i would have been hustling. (of course, my mom never counted) so nope. not my son. i have been thinking counting was a bad habit to start. and yes, my son is 3 1/2 too. tough age! hang in there mom! but i would definitely stick to three if you are going to count. if you chose to keep counting sometimes, how will he know where his limit is?

I agree with everyone who said that there needs to be a consequence if the child doesn't come by the count of 3.

We just do the counting to 3 (and only to 3) when our toddler isn't focused on what we are asking. I'll say, "you need to do "x" or you'll get "y" consequence". It works well for us because he now knows that if we start counting, he needs to pay attention right away. He'll nearly always snap to attention, and start doing what we asked between 1 and 2. Often, he'll say "you didn't get to 3!) and I say, "that's good because 'y' would have been the consequence if I did."

I agree with everything said...

Sometimes counting 1-2-3 will encourage the kids to keep counting 4-5-6...

So we do, "Time to clean up. That's 1. That's 2. If I get to 3, we're going to have a problem." (The few times I've gotten to three it was on my way into that room, saying 3 and scooping her up to go upstairs.) I didn't call it a timeout. I told her it was time for her to "have a sit" until she could listen to me. Then when she comes out of her room, it's to apologize and IMMEDIATELY finish what she was told to do. (No timer, the child decides when she's ready to listen and do what she was told.)

We save "timeouts" for naughty behavior, sitting on a step in plain view of me or others in the house, being removed from the "fun". No talking, whining, etc. until the microwave timer goes off. Kids know that "the beeps" mean its time to get off the step. They are reminded what behavior put them on the step, how they should/are expected to act or react, then allowed to return playing. For "naughty" behavior, like hitting, timeouts are supposed to be used to give the kid time to cool off and think about their behavior. We have found that by sitting in plain view it reinforces the idea they SHE was naughty therefore SHE is removed from the fun. However having to sit there and watch everyone else still having fun is better "discipline" than anything I could impose.

So I encourage a difference between "timeouts" and the counting. We only give one warning about naughty behavior. The counting is saved for cleaning up, getting out the door, doing what is asked.

I hope this helps. This has worked very well in our house.

BTW- I think your "advanced notice" on what is expected, like 5 minutes until..." is FABULOUS. That also works great for us too.

One other idea for your little guy, since this is a learning process, is see if for "cleaning up" if you can put on a timer, or better, music for him. Tell him to see how many toys he can clean up while the music is playing. Then give him TONS of praise, and maybe a little snack or treat for a job well done. My kids find this to be a great "game" and run around picking up everything in sight! (Barney does have a "clean up" song that many preschools use...it's easy to find online.")

I count to three and then automatic discipline. my son likes to test the boundries. one he debates in his mind if he want to obey. 2 he thinks a little harder and 95% of the time obeys. I hit 3 automatic discipline. I never ever go past 3. he usually minds at 2. unless he is in a stubborn mood. but If I hit 2 he sits down and looks at me like "I didn't do anything" never ever go past 3 you are giving him his way of manipulating you. And you will regret going past 3 when he is older if you continue.

Sounds like my son. Count backwards! Can't go anywhere once you hit zero. Well... you can... my smart-aleck son was adding '-1', '-2' to the count once a few months before he turned 5. Continue to give lots of warnings about transitions. Then don't back down. NEVER keep going once you hit 3 (or zero if you go down). If you say 'x will happen if I have to say 3', then do whatever it takes to make x happen. Don't say stuff that you can't (or don't want to) enforce. If you say no tv for 2 days, then no tv for 2 days regardless of how much he howls (and we've gone through 4-5 hour long tantrums here over that type of stuff so I feel your pain - trust me!).

After being CONSISTENT a few times and stopping at 3 and doing the discipline at 3, he'll learn to not push it. Right now he knows your flexible and he's just trying to figure out how much he can push and how much you'll give. Become a brick wall and don't budge. If you let down even once, he'll keep pushing and attacking the rule at every angle to figure out how to get you to do it again. Of course, if he's like my son, he'll attack and look for leeway every few weeks/months just to see if you still mean what you say.

My son (ADHD, mild Asperger's) is almost 8 and still struggles with transitions. A daily routine/schedule is best for him (school is easier, summers are hard!) so try keeping routines the same for your son. A picture schedule of the day, so he can see in the morning what will happen, is also often helpful.

Keep doing what your doing with the counting - just end it at 3 and don't give in. Oh... the first few days will be the roughest - he'll test to see how he can get you to give in again. Hang in there!

It sounds like you already have a bunch of great answers to your question, so I won't comment on that. But I wanted to offer a suggestion about something in your "So What Happened?" As long as you don't mind talking about your day's plan all day, then it's not an issue. But if you wanted to talk about it once and not have to repeat it, you could spend some time with your son in the morning drawing out the day's activities on a white board so he could see the schedule. Then you could refer back to the schedule when he asks about it, and it could be fun for him to check off or erase each activity as it was completed.

I suggest getting "1-2-3 Magic" and giving their method a try. (less than $10 on amazon). It is an amazing tool to "count" your kids.. and it works!

I count to 5 then I give a simple swat on the hiney. I rarley ever have to give a swat, maybe one every other week or three weeks? They hear the numbers start and they hop up and get busy doing whatever it was I wanted. J is 3 years 5 months old and his mom did a lot of drugs while pregnant so he has to be given the opportunity to have more chances but I still expect him to mind within reason.

I count to 5 so I can remember to give them time to process my request and change gears in their little minds. I would say "blah blah blah" then expect it done right then. Now I say "blah blah blah" and they have a moment to get up and start doing it.

Each child is different. We count to 5. At one point it was 10. Counting just to 3 meant our daughter was NON-STOP in trouble. Our dd is 3 1/2 and a challenging child...very impulsive. So counting to 3 was just too little. Our counting goes at different speeds depending if she is getting in gear our if we need to move faster. She knows that she's going to get a swat or time out depending on where we are at and what's going on if she doesn't get there before 5. Do what feels right to you.

H.

I was always consistent counting to three. And it worked! You have to follow thru on consequences right at three EVERY time. People were always shocked it worked for me, but I never let them have a four, a five or a six!

I'm in the same boat but we as parents sometimes don't give our kids enough credit. If he is starting to count down with u then he is waiting to see if u are really about to follow through with what u said you're going to do. Continue to tell him before what u have planned to do and then when it's time and he is not doing what u told him to do take action. Also don't feel bad about it because all children need direction. Most times it only takes a few times for kids to understand it really depends on us as parents following through :) good luck and know you're not alone in the battle.

I actually stop at three...okay I get to two and a half and then three. teehee